I understand that CCS measures action, power, and speed that is not my point. My point is that as using ERN it measures action, power and speed poorly. Why create a special number when we already have perfectly adequate measurements of how much weight is required to deflect a blank 1/3 its length? Everyone except fly fishermen measures the lures they fish with in ounces or grams not some arbitrary line number, so why can’t we measure blank power using ounces or grams?

I am all for blank manufacturers giving us more information, and I will take all I can get, I just believe that using ERN as a power measurement is not as useful as simply giving the weight to deflect the blank 1/3 its length.

Here is a little tidbit about using full length as opposed to working length. I could be wrong but if you look at the picture Northfork posted of their CCS rig it sure looks like they are using working length. Why else have pegs at 10, 11, 12 inches out from the butt support?

Emory,

My point is that the manufacturer cannot possibly give you the measurments, either the CCS, the length nor the weight, for the rod as you build it. All they can do is give you the measurements for the blank as they supply it. Nobody builds a blank into a rod the same way. The blank manufacturers do not possess a crystal ball. So that sort of thing is a mute point.

The measurements you take for a finished rod as you build it don't tell me anything unless I build mine exactly the same as you built yours, and hold it in the exact same place as you do. But as many of us have said over and over here, what you choose to measure and how you choose to use it is entirely up to you.


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Jim,

I never disagreed with you so I'm not sure what your point was. I said plainly that you can use the system in various ways to do what you wish to do. This was fully covered in "The Big Picture." I never said you were doing anything wrong. Use the CCS in whatever way that you find helpful.

I would hope that any builder that looks at the weight given for a bare rod blank would understand that once built, the weight of the finished rod will be more than the weight of a bare blank. This was my point when I said "wise rod builders." Obviously, experience cannot be bestowed - it can only be gained by doing something many times. But these sort of things are so elementary that any builder that doesn't understand them may have a very difficult time in ever obtaining the blank he needs to use to get what he wants in a finished rod.

Now just for kicks, keep in mind that every time you move your hand up or down the rod a bit, your earlier "working length" goes right out the window - it changes every time you move your hand. Doesn't it? So when you sell a rod to a fishermen do you indicate where he must hold the rod in order to have your given specs be accurate? What happens to your careful measurements if the fisherman moves his hand from behind the reel and places it in front of the reel? There's something we can all argue about for a bit.

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Mike,

You have very badly misinterpreted the system. You have made several statements here that are completely in error.

The amount of weight required to deflect the blank to a distance equal to 1/3rd of its length is directly related to the number of cents or ERN. The more weight required, the higher the ERN. The "system" in use currently by most manufacturers is one of relative power numbers within their own offerings. What does "4-power" tell you about your blank? It certainly doesn't tell you how much weight was required to obtain that rating - if that sort of thing is important to you. On the other hand if you want to know that sort of thing, the CCS plainly tells you exactly how much weight was required to obtain the required deflection. And, the resulting number of cents or ERN is relative across the board for any manufacturers' product.

You stated, "...so why can’t we measure blank power using ounces or grams?" That's what the CCS does. Pennies were chosen as a weight medium due to the fact that they are a common everyday household item and minted to precise weight tolerances. They help make the system easy and uniform. If you wish to know the weight required for the proper deflection distance, just take the number of pennies used and multiply them by the weight of a single cent. But remember, the weight required to obtain the deflection distance is not the weight the rod is capable of casting.

Your "tidbit" is off base as well. If you read the articles you know that the blank should be supported at a point that is roughly 10% of its total length from the butt. Different blank lengths therefore require different forward points of support. This is why North Fork has those support pegs in different locations. They cannot use what you call "working length" because they have no idea what that would be for anyone's particular handle length. North Fork is measuring their blanks according to the instructions given by the inventor of the CCS.

If you are having trouble grasping the basics of the CCS, and I think you are, please stop by and visit Dr. Hanneman's booth at the Expo in February. I'm sure he will be happy to answer any questions you have and hopefully clear up some of your confusion.


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WASSUP!

A picture is worth a thousand words!

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Tom,
In regards to the “just for kicks”, I agree with what you’re saying. By my selection of the reel seat location, I see it as a practical feature from which to measure. Most anglers grip the rod very close to the reel…or palm the reel itself. It’s kinda like the arbitrary 1/3 of rod length. In any type of system, it’s difficult to be all-inclusive, but we try to provide for the rule and not the exception.
I think we’re pretty much on the same page otherwise. In retrospect, maybe I should have never referred to what I’m doing as CCS at all. I’m not trying to besmirch the purity of the CCS nor am I trying to re-invent the wheel.

Bill,
Very cool! Only thing that might be added would be an adjustment of center distance between “rollers”.

Now I remember. ( takes a little time ) When the system first came out there was a way to measure each section of a two piece blank. Say to see if they would be compatable as a rod when a furrel was made and they were put together. I fooled with it but just for a little while.
So I can see about measuring -the working end- of a rod.
Got to get back into the article and read it again. Heck if a blank can be measured to see how it would work if cut from the tip or butt. Heck why not.

Bill - willierods.com

Jim,

You are using the CCS, no doubt about that. But you're using it in the "Big Picture" style which Dr. Hanneman wrote about in the Volume 6 #3 issue. The numbers you get may not be comparative for use against bare blanks rated over their full length, but if they help you do something you want to do, that's what important. The only thing I'd advise, and you may have already thought of this (you did so in your first post in this thread), is that when giving out or publishing such figures, you note that they are not for the total rod length but were instead taken over a specific portion of the rod.

Now here's something else to look at, again just for kicks. Take a common freshwater style fly rod and hold it like you would while fishing. Note how far your hand is from the butt of the rod. Now do the same with your freshwater casting and spinning rods. In most cases, you're going to find that you hold a fly rod in about the same place that you hold most bass casting and spinning rods. My guess is that most common freshwater bass casting and spinning rods in the 6 to perhaps 8 foot range, have handles that locate your rod hand in the realm of 8 to 12 inches from the butt of the blank, which is also where your hand falls on most fly rods.

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Tom,
“The rod hand in the realm of 8 to 12 inches from the butt of the blank”
Therein lays the problem. That variable of where the rod is gripped not only changes the effective length of the rod (dynamically), but by how much, determined by that location….hence, justifying a rod rating vs. a blank rating. By using 1/3 of the length from the RS to tip (for rod rating), the variable of different grip lengths is eliminated.
And, from what you say about holding a fly rod in about the same place that you hold most bass casting and spinning rods……maybe we’re all in the same camp after all.(cringe)