This is my first post...been looking for awhile.............WOW, i have learned alot.....so i thought to throw out some questions that im having around a bass rod i am having built.......
The Blank......................St Croix SCII 6'10" Heavy, Moderate-fast..............going to cut down to 6'8"
Fuji ACS reel seat mounted Eight inches from butt......(tournament fish out of a Kayak) with a Rod balancer from Fuji Japan
and Looking at the Titanium Fuji Micros........#6 stripper guide....then 5 then the rest 4.5.........................
My first Question is the Tip.........this blank has a 6.5 tip......and i dont like the look of the transition from 4.5micro to the 6 tip top...any sugestions?
(Oh i forgot this rod is for Bass Jigs w/ the ocational chatterbait or spinnerbait)
Next question is Grip....with such a short handle is there any advantage with the split grip?
And should i even use such small guides.....i was tinkering around with just using a number 5 for the whole rod....but if we go with micros how many guides should i add to avoid the line pulling past the blank under heavy load?
the builder has two versions of cork......is the standard good enough since the grip will always be covered with "rodWrap"?
Ok i guess thats all for now.................any help would be great.....this is the first time having a rod built around me and my fishing style...and i'm really excited but i don't want to come out of this wishing i had done this or shouldn't of done that.........my wife says im never satisfied :)
thanks

My thoughts are ONLY opinions ... but you did ask.

1) Cut a St Croix blank = warranty done.
2) Rod balancer = added weight. I am not fond of any additional weight.
3) Titanium Fuji guides on a SC2 blank = caviar for the homeless.
4) Micro guides on a heavy power blank ... you may be giving up more than you are gaining. Also, a #6 butt guide isn't typical. What's the reasoning?

Yes, standard cork or even substandard cork is just fine if it is to be covered.

Thanks for your response.......and since i don't know squat, i value everyones opinion.....

with the SCII blank..........i can't find a blank with that power/action in any other brand...or in the better strains of stcroix..(and loomis is out because of there blank future)
i would like a med-heavt/ex-fast but those dont come out untill after icast

the balancer is to help compensate for the short (kayak friendly) handle lenght......and with kayak tournament fishing i get pretty fitigued after a 12hr prefish or eight hour tournament of paddling and fishing, and i was thinking a well balanced rod might help with that?????

the SIC titanium guides....definately caviare..hehehe.........but again i was thinking that the density of the guides along with the flourocarbon line and tungston jig might help to make the lower strain blank feel more sensitive????????

with the #6 stripper guide....the builder provided me with a rod to try with that guide configureation, and it seem to work fine, maybe.......??????but after looking at the micros im not sold on the idea of them just yet.....probably go with the 5's for the rod.....unless there are some other suggestion.....??????

nothing is set in stone....and im open to any thoughts......i don't have the resources to do this more than once right now, so i would like to get something that will hold up to tournament abuse and be able to handle the larger jig ( and the huge bass we have here in south central texas......ie...lake falcon, choke canyon, amistad...........)

Bob, Shortening the blank from either end is going to slow the action of the rod. The only way to make it faster, is to lengthen the butt. If you're fatigued after the fishing and paddling, by God add weight. A good workout will always soothe and relieve tension. You're talking a maximum of a #6 stripper guide and micro guides to the tip. By all means, use the lightest guide you can find because you will see about a 1 gram difference in the total weight of the guides, if you go with the titanium and sic and, oh yeah, we're going to add a whole bunch of weight back on to rebalance the rod. Micro guides are fantastic as long as you aren't trying to pass any large knots. You can get along just fine with aluminum oxide guides and stainless frames be they black or silver and you won't feel the difference in weight. With a short butt grip, don't bother with a split grip. You are probably putting the rod in a rod holder on the kayak anyway, so that just makes it a pain. You're saying that you "don't know squat" bothers me. You fish tournaments but don't know what type of rod you want. Have you fished a tournament yet, or are you just dreaming of getting started? The kayak fishers want a longer rod to help get the line around the front of the boat, not a shorter rod. A 7'6" rod or even a 7" rod should be considered the shortest. Look for a 7 to 7'6" rod in a fast/ x-fast action and oh yeah, are we talking about a spinning rod, or a casting rod? I don't mean to seem crass, but you stated you "learned a lot". It doesn't seem you have learned anything of any use. Give the readers of this forum some real information about what you want in a kayak fishing rod: what you expect it to do including the weights of the types of baits you plan to use it with and you will get some real answers. So far you have come into the car dealership and said you want a blue car with small wheels.

I'm no pro like some of those who responded but here are a few thoughts:

1. Titanium guides makes sense of you are going to be in salt water, low cost blank or not. But you can get Titanium in lower cost configurations by using other brands.
2. I would use larger guides just for the knot and swivel since it is presumably a bit more difficult to rerig if you hit problems, unlike a boat or land. I assume you will be paddling, fighting waves if you are in the ocean etc.
3. Tip top - I just use a guide as a tip. Lighter, keep the continuity. I also let the blank protude a bit beyond the guide to protect the guide. I have jammed long rods against stuff often.

Mo

I am assuming your are having this rod built by a builder who is presently working with micro guides. If you desire a heavy duty bass rod for kayak work you may find that your desire for a balancing system is on target if you want to work lure weights from 3/4 to 1 1/2 ounce, in the tip up position, all day from the sitting position.. Take a look at the system that allows a rod to be fished with no added weight and also has the option of adding the correct weight to balance various lures.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

You noted a concern for line touch in your initial post. Please take a close look at a previous thread on this forum. When it opens be sure to go back to the initial post by sliding the view back to page one. You will find that many bass rods utilize the micro guide set ups - all on top - all same size with only one more guide. If the rod is spiral wrapped this becomes a non issue.

[rodbuilding.org]

Tip top considerations for the rod in question will require a five or a six ring in order to properly place a tip top for the rod. It is expected to have braced tip tips within thirty days with the proper size tubes for the 6.5 size noted.

If you are working in close with heavy duty bass rods the issue of knot passage may not be applicable. A properly tied uni knot with 50 # Power Pro and 20 # Fluoro will pass through a Fuji Alconite 4.0 if the knot is located on the spool of the reel and gets to velocity before getting to a guide ring.

If your are in the Texas area you will find quite a few of these rods on Falcon. Take a look at the XP3 Castaway blank offerrings that are specifically designed for the use you note:

Ask your builder to provide the individual weights of all items used to build the rod and do not add anything to the rod that is non functional. Be quite sure that you select the proper placement of the reel seat on the blank - it really matters!

[www.swamplandtackle.com]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2009 09:52AM by Bill Stevens.

Robert,
Here are my thoughts, some specific to your questions and others just general advise. I fish out of a tube and kayak on a fairly regular basis. My general rule is go as light as possible. The first thing I'd focus on is your reels. Get the lightest reel you can afford that works well. I personally use Shimano 50 mgs, Daiwa Alphas and Pixys. Work on getting them to cast a mile, super tune them, upgrade your bearings, oil... They may work great out of the box and need nothing, but get them casting very far. You may never need to cast that far, but it will make it very easy and much less effort to make the short cast. Casting out of a yak is much more work because your feet aren't planted so no energy transfer from the lower body.

For fishing out of my yak, I like longer less powerful rods. I use allot of 7'6" popping and Hot shot Blanks. The longer length allows me to move my bait quite a bit without moving my yak. It also allows me to move a bunch of line on hook set. The softer tip and fast to extra fast action of the HS and popping blanks allows my rods to load easily for casting, but still have all the power I need to move fish. My handles are all split grip and range from under 2 inches to 4 plus for the rear and or butt piece. I use as standard length handle and have not felt the need to try anything different.

I would not spend the extra money for the Fuji Ti guides unless you need them for salt water use. There is minimal weight savings and they are expensive. I use micros on most of my own rods and like a double 6, single 5 and 4s or 3.5s out to the tip. If you're set on the rod with the 6.5 tip, I'd use a guide. It will easily hold up for your use at least until you step on it like I did.

Finally, it looks like you're in Austin. If you are, I'm in Kyle and usually have a rod or two I loan out if you want to try something a little longer or a smaller split grip. This can help you narrow down your choices with your builder. You can email me by clicking on my name and getting my email from my profile.

Take Care,
Robert

ok......so let me try this..........I have been tournament fishing for six years.....over the last three i put in about 150 days a year....and during those days im on the water from "dark to dark"(if i can't put that sort of time i just don't go fish)......as far as knowing anything about rods or fishing from a kayak my last three seasons i've finished 6th, 1st, and fourth over all in the largest freshwater kayak tournament series in texas....(but don't like throwing that around...ya know that "know it all" ISM we guys can get...hahahaha ;)

so lets talk about kayak fishing: MTYH : we need longer rods in order to fight a fish around the boat..........i've hooked and fought thousands of bass in my kayak, and my 7' plus rods have had to travel around my boat about TWICE fighting a fish...........
Truth: on the hook set .....the upward or sideways force of the rod causes the kayak to "slide" toward the target (even under ancor) thus weekening the force applied to the hook....ie the need to move more line on the hook set to compensate for this boat motion...........this can be achieved by using longer rods......OR SHORTER rods with STIFFER actions.........

Tournament fishing from a kayak is about preperation and with the limited space availble my rods have to do double duty.........so like wrote in my eariler post this rod is being built for fishing with "bass Jigs" AND "spinnerbaits/ chatterbaits".......i'cant speak for anyone else.....but tring to toss a spinnerbait 700 times a day with a 7" or 7'6 rods will kill your arms.....yeah 700 cast a day..absolutley.......that number is pretty low for a prefish day......t

kayaking doesn't so much cause fitugue in my arms, but more my wrists......in the paddle stroke the arms are more for bracing to paddle and the bodys midsection for forward motion of the boat.....so maybe i understand the the concern with the weight of a rod but it seems to me that the force needed for the up-ward motion of the hook set could be greatly redused by adding a balancer thus decreasing the work my wrist have to do.....my arms ain't the body parts getting tired...................i spend 4 days a week in cardio/ strength training during the tournment season my fitness is good.....................also in my mind anytime you can increase the speed without encreasing force applied the better the chances of hook penatration.....or maybe it just in my head...
all my rod that ore seven foot are more tiring to set the hook than my shorter rod but all of my shorter rods WEIGH MORE.......why is that??????????

in order to help out i should probably say something about my fishing style.......................FAST............................i once read that 9 out 10 bites will come on the "FALL" of the bait............so i will make my bait fall ALOT......basically, i will cast out a jig/worm/tube let it fall.....when it hits the bottom i might get to a count of TWO befor i reel it in and make another cast.......so i'm using a curado e7 7.1:1 ratio reels......i think the weight about 7+ ouces.....and my average seven footer weighs 4 ounces........

one more thing that mite help...i hope.....about half of out events will end up bieng "hand to hand combat" what i mean i the bass will be shallow cover oriented.....wood, boat docks, bullrush....and fishing from a low seated position makes it hard to present baits with exteremaely long rods......i know that doesn't make sence but you would just have to get in a kayak with a 7.5 footer and a jungle of hard wood to know what im talking about......

when i wrote i don't know squat.........what i ment is ..................how come theres no consitancy between brands and power/action ratings........i can't just say i need a 6'8" heavy exfast rod and get what i think i want......some blanks will be too stiff or brittal.....others won't have enough back bone down the blanks to handle these monster texas bass.....so i put out the questions for you cats to disect .......if my blank choice suck.....THEN Whats a better one????..........And with the minumal price difference between SIC and alconite why wouldn'y a guy put the best guide on, even on a less than top shelf blank............

thank you for all the help and for suggestion......i will probably not go with true micros but use the smallest standard size availbe......but i should of said i don't tie leaders i'm going to either use flouro or braid not both............so opening size isn't what important....duribility / reality is???? and i wish the rod could be balance with the grip but the shorter length handle has to be on this rod or else i will constantly be fighting the butt of the rod with other equiptment in the boat......ok my fingers hurt thanks agian....

dang it......i wish i would of read your post robert befor i started typeing....:)......hey on the tip the blank says the tip is a 6.5 dia........what can i do about that with the smaller micro tops......???
bill......who was coming out with the braced top in the next 30 days.....i could quite figure that out.........
thanks again
robert d



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2009 11:55AM by robert dockery.

Robert curious about something: Do kayak fishermen at Falcon and other reservoirs in your area have access to the areas of heavy cover where flipping stick, like the Big Show Rods, use is common or is most of the kayak use for search pattern, long throw, stuff like the 964s.

Bill Stevens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robert curious about something: Do kayak
> fishermen at Falcon and other reservoirs in your
> area have access to the areas of heavy cover where
> flipping stick, like the Big Show Rods, use is
> common or is most of the kayak use for search
> pattern, long throw, stuff like the 964s.
mr stevens, i don't know about those rods......but i will learn......but yeah with the kayaks and the flooded conditions this spring some of the best areas were only accesable by kayak (and rattlesanke) the only draw back is the amount a paddleing, it may take over two hours just to paddle around and thru the brush to get to the next cut or pocket........im probably not doing this justice.........jeans and thick shirts were a requirement to fish the good stuuf....with the ammount of brush flooded.....on falcon there are many,many road side launches that are (or were) in the water that are maybe two miles from where a the nearest bass boat could get to......but me i would have a hard time managing a flippin stick with the shear madness or over hangling masquite trees.....i think next year i''' take a 6' med/heavy-ex fast rod i got for playing around down there.......................if i can help it i want to fish "CLOSE" in...........i prefer not to make long throws if its avoidable......don't know if that answered your questions but i hope so.....

Robert click on my name and send me an email - have files to transmit that I think you will find valuable.

Robert.

Wow, good read. Enjoyed your description. Obviously speed is important to you, of which ability to move quickly is important. Also you mentioned wrist fatigue which I'm sure is exacerbated by paddling.

Have you tried the Hobbie Mirage paddling system ? Way faster and less fatiguing than normal kayak plus you can still hand paddle.

Alternatively, if you have to cover large areas, you could look into the Torqeedo Kayak motor. I can vouch as a former Electrical Engineer by training, there is not another electric motor on the planet for small water craft that even comes close to the Torqeedo. They redefine what is possible in a 'trolling' motor in terms of size, weight and performance. They are $$$$ but for those who need it, that's still a bargain for the performance.

I know this is a bit off topic but thought it may be interesting to you.

Mo

Robert,
Never tried building a rod for your particular situation, but I'll attempt and see if this fits your needs.
Most of the rods I've built have been fly rods and 600-700 casts a day are the norm. Fast fishing on fast water. I've found that reducing weight on the overall rod and mostly on the tip go a long way to reducing fatigue.
Blank Cabela's 6'6" IM7 heavy one piece.
One piece rods are a pain but if you want to keep the rod light and strong this is my best choice.
Additionally this rod has a smaller 5/64 tip dia to reduce tip swing weight in the blank.
Am tackle lite tip top with nanolite ring 6mm.
Am tackle Titan fly guides #6 for top 2 to 3 guides.
These have titanium frames for weight reduction on the rod tip.
Am tackle double foot #8 for next 3-4 guides.
Am tack double foot #10
Should have 7 guides total.
The use of titanium is not overkill they just reduce the overall hardware weight and the rod rebound.
I'm not sold on adding balance weights to the butt of the rod. This improves static balance in the horizontal plane but increases the amount of mass you must move when casting adding fatigue.
Rather then adding weight to the butt it would be better to reduce weight from the tip, hence the smaller blank tip dia.
As I've read your comments you seem to want a rod that acts very stiff in the tip but very light to move all day more like a conductors baton. Excuse the analogy.
Maybe way off base you be the judge.

Good fishing

Eugene Moore:

Could you please provide the total added weight in either grams or ounces that ALL added components including grip and finish that is added to the p[articular rod you propose. Your are exactly correct - what matters is total added weight.

The following example of the build added weigh of a Lamiglas 847 is when using micro guides. Many tournament fishermen may opt to fish with this rod unbalanced for spot use or until they get tired from swinging the pendulum while flipping heavy lure weights and install the appropriate removable counterweight hub. Punchin grass with a 1 1/2 lure wt will wear you out quick! The counter weight added to heavy rods does not cause angler fatigue due to the fact that it is normally not raised vertically by the angler - it only falls - when flipping. Remember the potential enegy possessed by mass - it only requires spending of energy from the angler if he is required to raise it - if is is only holding it in place at the hip level while flipping he is not burning calorise it is simply balancing the tip weight of the rod and lure. Many people will argue this fact to the death until they are actually exposed to the circumstances and try it out.

The micro builds proposed by several builders on this site do exactly what you propose - significant tip weight on fishing rods.

Here is one example - if you have the weight numbers on one of the builds you propose compare them.

See if any of it makes sense to you! - 847 Lamiglas IMC* - tip heavy.

Nine Fuji LSG 3.5 Micro Guides all on top - Fuji Alconite 5.5 tube 6/64" top.

Initial blank wt on digital scale 2.80 oz (79.4 grs)

All guides in place in place and finished with Perma Gloss - 3.92 oz

Rear Grip Length to Back of Reel Seat - 9.5 inches ( specified by Elite fisherman )

Balance Point with Shimano MG50 Loaded with 50# Power Pro - Center Reel Seat + 1.5 inches

Provide 2 and 4 ounce counter weights screw on.

* Factory Special Roll for MICRO & Reduced Tip Diameter AJR

Robert;
I would suggest that you follow Mr. Stevens’s advice. Although I personally prefer spiral wraps. He is steering you closer to the direction you want to go then any of the other advice given.
Had surgery on my arm Sat. or I would have responded to your query earlier and in more depth but this is about all I can do at the moment.

I don't recall saying that what matters most is total weight.
On the contrary What matters most is the inertia that must be rotated by the person doing the casting.
If you allow gravity to provide all the casting energy then the more mass you place on the butt, the further you can cast and you can prop your arm against the railing.
The cummlative effects of all the components that must be rotated to create a cast has very little to do with static weight and balance. To create rotation all these components, on both sides of the fulcrum, must be accelerated from a stop to some peak velocity and decelerated back to zero.
The components furtherest from the fulcrum have the greatest effect due to lever ratio and distance traveled.
Assume a 5 foot long rod with the fulcrum 1 foot from the end.
An effective 4 to 1 ratio.
1 ounce is added on the tip of the long leg. This can be balanced with 4 ounces on the short leg.
The total weight is only 5 ounces but the weight is not evenly distanced from the fulcrum.
When the rod is rotated about the fulcrum energy must be applied to both ends.
The energy that must be applied from the fulcrum is 2300 in ounces for the long leg plus 580 in ounces for the short leg equals 2830 in ounces applied energy. The long leg requires 80% of the force and the short leg only requires 20% this is due to leverage effect and the increased distance traveled by the long leg.
If the weight on the long leg is reduced to .7 ounce the balance leg could be reduced to 2.8 ounces.
total weight is now 3.5 ounces or 1-1/2 ounce lighter.
Rotational effects are now 1600 in ounces plus 400 in ounces or 2000 in ounces.
Total energy required is 30% less than before.
Now we remove the balance weight.
The rod is now tip heavy by .7 ounces but the total weight is only .7 ounces or 2.8 ounces lighter.
Rotational effects are now 1600 in ounces.
Total energy required 44% less then where we started the rod is lighter but tip heavy.
Reducing the tip weight is where the biggest gains can be achieved.