Maybe I've got it now. Thanks for your patience. What would the effect be on power & action by installing a longer handle, say a 12" handle vs a 7" handle on the same blank?
Would the resulting power & action be about the same as if you cut off 5" off the butt & installed a 7" handle?
Seems to me the result would be about the same if the tip to reel distance is the same in both situations, except for the little bit of counter balance provided by the longer grip.
Is my thinking about right?

Somewhat right Bill...A fishing rod bends the ENTIRE LENGTH with any fair fish. Meaning if you cut the butt, there's no butt to bend anymore and it can change the rods power, the action should not be effected unless you really make a huge handle length or cut. So moving the reel seat will effect the rod, but removing the rod changes the blank entirely. I think that's something close? ..

DR

I think it would be the same overall but th epart fo the rod you actually use might be different. The longer the handle the slower the effective action and the less effective power. But then a longer handle means you have a shorter effective lever so the fish loses his leverage advantage there. Interesting question.

Tried that many years ago to balance bass rods, the rods were very sensitive and balanced, but casting them was another matter. It really messed up the blanks action (stiffer), they cast terribly compared to the same blank with shorter grips, and my presentations were harder or near impossible to accomplish sometimes.

Action refers to the initial flex point in a rod It shouldn't make any difference if it is a bare blank, a rod with a 6" handle or a 12" handle, the blank is still going to flex at the same point. If you cut or extend the blank, , the rod will flex at a different place in relation to the butt end of the rod.

The size of the grip shouldn't have any effect on the action.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2009 10:06AM by Mike Barkley.

Bill, way too many apples & oranges there
The casting dynamic will change with the longer butt behind the reel, depends on the lure weight & your style as to whether that would be good or bad, typically better for heavier lures, if you are casting 2 - handed..............no difference at all if you are casting single handed , but that longer butt might get in the way with some casting styles.
Fishing power , long butt definitely significantly more powerful.
CCS style rod power , higher as you extend the handle..................has to be by definition. Lower if you cut the blank back.
Real power vs CCS definition , not much.

Ken
" But then a longer handle means you have a shorter effective lever so the fish loses his leverage advantage there. Interesting question."
Not really. better leverage , but the effective lever length of the rod with a longer handle & reel in the same place as before , but you have increased the leverage of the angler effort bu the same amount , but as a higher percentasge of the angler effort lever length , so total leverage is better.

Mike
If just extending the handle the action of the tip won't be changed..............but depends on whether the extended handle & lure weight under better casting leverage overpowers the tip...............ditto for fishing power.

A lot more at play here than most would recognise at face value.
Small changes ............small effects
nearly doubling the butt length is not exactly a small change & depends on its effect on how close the blank was used to its rated limits before the change.

For the type of (Bass) fishing that I do, most of the grips on my rods are relatively short (6-7”). A short grip offers me more agility and is less awkward. I don’t feel that a longer grip is necessary because most of my rods are under 6 feet in overall length. A longer rod usually necessitates a longer grip to maintain a more desirable ratio. The way I see it, if I were to extend the grip on one of my existing rods, the power and action would remain the same, but the longer grip would allow me to more easily increase the load on the rod. It might be debatable whether I could get more power from the rod…possibly beyond its load limits. The rods characteristics wouldn’t change between the reel seat and the tip. I agree with Denis as far as the dynamics changing when casting two handed or fighting a fish with the longer grip. Also, as Denis pointed out in a post (“Re: Rods Class 1 or class 3 levers?) last August, “When casting single-handed, the rod itself is not a lever at all.............it’s just a flexible throwing stick magnifying the arm action”. However, when fighting a fish, I think it does become a lever…short grip just not as effective as one with a longer grip. When I CCS my rods to determine the power and action, I use 1/3 of the length measured from the reel seat to the rod tip. I feel that this negates any variables I get because of different grip lengths and gives me the specs I need to get the relative power/action of all my rods. My interest is in the “end product” or finished rod as opposed to a bare blank. If I want to replicate an existing rod ….or effectively change the pwr/action compared to an existing rod, I CCS the new blank by mocking up the reel seat (and/or tip) location before applying the load.
Admittedly, I don’t understand all I know about this stuff (Ha), but I believe 90% of it is theory…..therefore, “trial and error” has been a viable tool for me over the years. The theory is interesting and in many cases a form of “reverse engineering”.

I prefer a shorter rear grip as I want to make as long of a cast as possible and feel I achieve this by making the working part of the rod longer.
A longer handle shouldn't affect the rod's power or action but shortening the blank itself (cutting) a fast action will be more like a mod fast but a medium power should still be a medium power blank.

Sorry, double post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2009 11:08PM by Matthew Jacobs.

For a blank of a given length, the location of the reel (resulting in a short or long grip) does effectively change the rods power and action. And, as mentioned earlier, the dynamics can change depending on how the rod is used.
I think of the rod blank as being the raw material for a finished rod. It’s like a primary ingredient of a food dish…. it’s characteristics can change (better or worse) dramatically when adding other ingredients at various amounts.
In regards to blank cutting…. I’ve heard (or read) of dire warnings as to the negative effects of cutting blanks….almost as disastrous as having line touching a blank….OMG! LOL
I typically cut down blanks to get the length I want. It gives me the option to vary the power and action considerably to get the desired affect. I’ve found that by cutting 6” from the butt section of a blank makes relatively little difference in the feel of a rod (some loss of power and slows action). However, it only takes an inch or two off the tip to make a significant difference (stiffer/more power in tip section). Since “feel” is subjective, it would be hard to describe to someone the difference they’d “feel” by altering blank lengths. CCS “Power” and “A/A” relative values are helpful, but are still hard to relate to in terms of “feel”. Experimenting can pay dividends if you’re looking to change a rods characteristics to suit a given technique or fishing method.

Denis,

I think that much of the confusion here is between extending the length of the blank/rod or simply lengthening the grip. Two different animals. By extending the actual rod length (extending the blank), it will move the initial flex point farther away from the butt and will make a blank faster whereas changing the grip length souldn't effect the action at all. I think that action and power are being confused as they are totally different things.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mike,
I agree with you in theory, but depending on how the rod is used, a portion of the butt section may not even be used (one-handed cast), which in effect makes the distance from the reel (or ?) to the flex point of the tip more relevant. I think a blank and a finished rod can be two different animals. I also agree with what you said…” changing the grip length shouldn't effect the action at all”, provided the end of the butt was used (two-handed cast) as part of the dynamic,…and if not …then, only if the flex point was measured from the tip…which, of course, is not correct by definition.
I think what Denis was referring to when he said “If just extending the handle, the action of the tip won't be changed”, was not the “action”….meaning “slow”, “moderate or “fast” per se…. but, “stiffness” or “flex”. My comprehension levels are not always up to following some of his (or other technos) theories on this forum…..he speaks faster (smarter) than I can listen (comprehend).
After reading through the posts on this thread, it seems we’re all saying about the same thing. I hope Denis (or others) will jump back in and give us more insightful thoughts on the subject and/or possibly correct our misguided theories or suppositions.

Bill,
Just curious….. Is any of our rambling enlightening? It has occurred to me that you may feel that you had a better handle (no pun intended) on this subject before you brought up the subject.

I think that's the point of confusion here. Action is where the tip flexes, not stiffness, flexibility, power, resonance frequency, tip softness or anything else. Example - "fast" action simply means that the blank will flex in the upper 1/3 of the blank 6' fast blankw will initially flex within the upper 2 ft. Say that blank flexes at exactly 2' from the tip, it would be considered a fast action. Extend that blank to 6'6" and the blank will be slightly faster. Whether you have a 6", 9" grip, light Med or Heavy power, soft tip, it will still be a fast action, that won't change. Many characteristics may change but I believe that the action won't change unless the blank itself is changed

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mike,
I’m not sure why you think anyone is confused about the “definition” of action.
I’m in total agreement with what you’re saying if a rod is used for two-hand casting, BUT…. there is a point of contention,… it’s in the 1/3 of “length”…which in the case of a “fast” 6’ blank is, as you say, 2’ from the tip. However, depending on the location of the reel seat and how the rod is used (one-handed cast), the “effective length” will change. The blank will still flex 2’ from the tip, but in effect, the ROD’s (not the blank’s) “action” will be different because the “flex point” may no longer be within the upper 1/3 of the “effective length”. It IS still in the upper 1/3 of the BLANK length and still 2’ from the tip, but the action will be comparatively slower because of the location of the reel seat….assuming a one-handed cast. Even if you extended the blank (butt/grip length) and still made single-hand casts, the action would remain the same (slower than previously determined by the original blank length).
I don’t think we’re in disagreement…may be an issue of semantics or maybe words (Denis’s “action”) taken out of context.
I think that we can categorize blanks by their given characteristics, but once they’re built into a rod, other factors come into play.
Anyway,….. if in fact, no one was confused, I’ve probably succeeded in causing confusion.

I guess it's all in the wording. I agree with what you are saying, Jim but I just don't think think that it's the action. Action is an absolute. Someting is changing but I don't think that it's action. This is the first time i've herad the term "effective" action used. Not saying I'm right or anyone is wrong (I'm probably the one that's confused!)

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Granted, this is an over-simplification and ignores all other aspects of rod use/function, but….If you were to build two rods using identical blanks, one having a 6” grip, the other having a 12” grip (same overall length), and both rods were to be cast one-handed, the rod with the 12” grip would have a slightly “slower” action. If you then stripped the rods down to the bare blanks, both blanks would once again have identical actions.
I’m sure there is someone that could better explain the physics involved regarding “cause and effect” better than me. I think that as you say, “action is absolute”, but there are elements that can change the equation. As I’ve said earlier, I don’t understand all I know about this stuff.

Unfortunately, if action was absolute & power were absolute we would have universal definitions for them.
The reality is we don't.
Manufacturers have their definition of action ( as in their specs.........but who knows how they determine it)
CCS has its definition & tries really hard to provide a comparative basis for individual blanks.
For blanks of a common length & similar construction the CCS approach is pretty darn good.
It comes back to my opening comment about apples & oranges.
Its difficult to apply a comparative approach to action/power when substantive differences exist between blanks & particularly where a given blank is modified either by cutting or extending.
In extending a given blank ..........the portion of the original blank will behave the same way as it did before, but its effect on the extension will vary depending on the nature of the material in the extension & its length.
An extreme example of this would be a moderate action 6' blank extended to 12' with a stiff extension piece .........the resultant rod would be a fast action blank comparative to any manufacturers version or CCS.
We have changed the rod to a point where the original has no comparison to the resultant modification and we have no tools to enable assessment of the two comparatively.
At smaller modifications of the blank , tip trimming, butt trimming, extensions........... are closer to the original and comparison using the same assessment tools has a modest level of meaning.

Aside from such comparison of blank performance in its inherent action & power
The question originally posed ...............in extending the butt by 5" from a 7" butt , to 12" leaving the reel in the same place,
- The effect in single handed casting action will be NIL
- the effect in double handed casting will be increased casting power deliverable by the casting force over the length of the butt.
Whether this will be better or worse in casting effect will be dependant on how close the casting weight used was close to the maxium
casting weight of the rod................as the increased casting power available from the butt extension may allow the original front section
to be over powered
................. if the original blank in the front section is able to handle the increased casting power available at the casting weight ,
the dynamic of the blank will be increased & longer casts can be expected.
- in fighting ability the leverage advantage of the increased butt length will enable more effective power to be applied to the rod tip.
again this depends on the ability of the rod blank in front of the foregrip to handle that power.
2 results are possible
- the blank is over powered and the result is simply less angler effort for the same line tension.
- a higher line tension is achieved , at the same angler effort & the blank is not overpowered.

Hope that helps explain my 2C a bit better.

Denis,
Although your explanation is very thorough, I think you may have misunderstood Bill’s question. I believe what he was asking was “How would the rod’s power and action be affected by having a 12” grip vs. a 7” grip (different reel location).” Second question: “If you cut off 5” from the 12” grip (leaving a 7” grip), would the power and action be the same as before you made the cut (reel in the same relative location from the rod tip)?” I don’t think extending the blank was an issue.
Assuming that Bill hasn’t lost interest by now (snicker), perhaps he can verify that I’m not the one that’s confused.
Anyway, I’m not trying to be critical, I just think you might want to expand and share your insight to encompass the different perspective (or “new” variables).

Very interesting. I'm a Structural Engineer & have an ISB781 blank. I really wanted (newby) a rod that was 72" max. I now think what I should have bought - and will probably buy - is an ISB722. Rod will be used on Blue Ribbon Smallmouth streams in Arkansas. Crooked Creek & lower Buffalo Wilderness with one handed casting - mostly short distances. Accuracy is important on these streams. The fishing will be out of a canoe & rods longer than 6' are somewhat of a problem, given the overhanging trees, etc. Lures vary from 1/8 to 5/8 oz. I wanted a stronger spinning rod than the loomis 1/16 to 1/4 rod I currently using.
The question came to me when studying and thinking about the varying section modulus and slope deflection and virtual work of a rod and the effect of reducing the length. Seems like some of the problems I wrote computer designs for in the late '60s.
Jim, the thought came to me that if you kept the ratio of the tip (action) to the length of the rod essentially the same, the resulting "action" would be about the same.
Also it seems to me that the fore grip, reel seat and the grip would increase the bending resistance of the bottom part of the rod. And a rigid grip would reinforce the lower part of the rod & therefore increase the "power".
I do not want a long handle to get in the way. I probably build the 6'-6" rod & give it to my son-in-law & get me a 6' blank & cut it down 2". I really like the Loomis 5'-10" Bronze Back casting rod he gave me for my birthday.
Thanks for the feed back.
Mike Barkley, I really enjoyed your seminar at the Expo.
Bill

Ok Bill
A much better context to your question now
Everything you were proposing in cutting the blank or moving the reel forward with longer handle will effectively soften the action of the original blank,casting single handed and reduce its power
Cutting back length & building with a 12" butt.............will accentuate the ability to overpower the blank as built when pulling.
Think you are making the right choice in getting the 6' blank
2" of the butt of it & short handle will be neither here nor there in action/ power alteration.
trimming the 6'6" blank back to 5'10" would be noticeable.

Mind you I am not against highly modifying blanks............................I do a lot of it.
The 12" handle & single handed casting threw me a bit., until you clarified single handed.