Hello,

I am in the process of selecting components to build a heavy salt water stand up rod and need advice on roller guides. Money is always a consideration, but I know you get what you pay for. I don't want to spend $400 on Winthrop guides or more on Aftco Ball Bearing guides, but also $35 on regular guides seems too cheap. Which of the following would you choose? Why or why not? Any I should definitely keep out of consideration? Any I have missed I should consider?

Aftco Wind-Ons - $72.75 for set
Batson ALPS - $218.58 for set
Pac Bay Eliminator Jr. - $59.05 for set

P.S. These will be going on a Calstar Grafighter blank using an aluminum butt (match the butt to the guides when I choose).

Thanks,
Tom

The guides need to be able to pass any knots or wind-on leaders you're using. Once you know they can do that, choose away. The thing is, no matter what you buy there is going to be routine maintenance that must be performed if you expect to keep them alive and freely turning during each season.

I'd also consider reel spool width and make sure the butt roller frame will accommodate the line at extreme angles and not allow it to rub the frame. Of course, some of this can be overcome by guide placement.

...................

Tom Locke,

You missed All American Roller Guides. They make the highest quality guides available at the lowest price. AA Roller guides are stainless steel, which is far superior to plated brass or aluminum, as sold by the other companies you mentioned. In addition, AA Roller guides have sufficient line clearance to pass large knots and wind-on leaders. These guide come in 11 different colors and the color The layer is a homogenous constituent of the metal and cannot delaminate or peel. This nickel chromium mono-oxide layer is extremely corrosion resistant.

An additional benefit is the fact that all components are stainless steel and are interchangeable between all guides sizes and tips. This means that you only have one roller wheel size, bearing, pin and screw that fits all guides, plus these rollers are guaranteed for life.

The price range for a complete set starts at $73.65. They are a sponsor of Rodbuilding.org

Click on this link to check them out.

[www.aarollerguides.com]

Rena

The American Tackle Turbo Titan guides are also worth a note of consideration. I was at the Fred Hall Show in Long Beach, CA last weekend and had my hands on a Seeker 2x4 rod built as a Stand up/Rail rod with those guides as well as a NITT top. That rod took a 299.9, a 223, a 199, a 198, a 234, and a 192 Yellowfin Tuna. Fished with 100lb top shot to 130lb top shot. If using hollow spectra as a backing then a line to line splice is the way to go and makes for a nice smooth transition from spectra to mono. I can't give more of a recommendation than that or how tough these guides are. The definition of the new Super Seeker 2x4 is they are using the tip section of a Super Seeker 6463XXH and the butt section of a Super Seeker 6463 XXXXH. I am wrapping my 2x4 today that I picked up at the 09 rod expo in High point. After talking with Seeker reps, American Tackle reps as well as some of the major reel manufacture field reps that actually fish these combos I made my decision to wrap the Titans on it..

Thad
Dutchman's Creek Tackle

More and more guys on the west coast are finding that they don't need roller guides for big tuna fishing with the advent of spectra and short topshots. Two of the best west coast long rangers have totally switched to ring guides over roller guides with no adverse effects. something to consider.................

I guess I am just assuming that rollers are needed for big fishing. How do you think the ring guides will stand up to 300 yards of line running off in a minute or two, reeling line back in under 30-40 pounds of drag, bearing swivels running over them and big wind on leader connections? I am thinking the stainless steel wheels are necessary for their toughness and size.
I like the look of the Pac Bay Eliminator guides. My only concern is the quality. I previously used Pac Bay SiC guides and two rings broke and the tip top fell off. This was after one fish. I was just wondering if it was an isolated incident or not. Someone else brought up a good point. Go with Aftco and if you ever need to replace a part it would never be an issue. Who knows if the other smaller brands would be just as easy.

I don't like the style of the Aftco Wind Ons as much as I do the Pac Bays, but I think the reputation is enough to make me go with the Aftcos.

I did check out All American, Stuart, American Tackle and others and I don't like their styles either.

Thanks everyone for your input. It is very helpful.

The ringed turbos dissipate heat just fine. A 200 to 300 pound Yellowfin Tuna will do just that to your 30 lbs of drag but you will be backing off the drag when the fish is that far away. It is not so much of the drag on the reel as is the drag of the line in the water also. If you are going to be using wind on swivels or large knots then I would have to suggest the Aftco Wind-ons for knot clearance. My Aftco setup for a #47 wind on stripper, a shd32 and finish with heavy duty #41 rollers. We are using line to line conections of 135 to 200 lb hollow spectra main line with a 25 feet of 100 lb to 300 lb or longer leader or topshot spliced into it. this is a 100 percent connection. No swivel or other harsh hardware to mess up a ringged guide or roller guide for that matter. It makes a smooth transision back and forth through the guides. I build West coast stand up rods both ways as well my own rods.

Thad
Dutchman's Creek Tackle

You didn't say that this rod would be used "stand-up" but all the responses seem as though you are. However, if it is going to be used for trolling or other general use (as opposed to stand-up tuna -long range type applications) you most likely don't need the "wind-on" rollers. There are a couple draw backs to these guides. They are heavy compared to the AFTCO HDs and the feet are too wide for many blanks (you didn't give a blank model). So, unless you're going to be using wind-on leaders and really need the clearance you may be happier with the Heavy Duty AFTCOs. I do also like the ALL AMERICAN rollers, but don't have enough experience with them yet to determine how well they hold up to time and torture.

The blank I plan on using is the Calstar Grafighter GF410XH. It has a base of .92" and tip of 12/64ths. I will trim a few inches off the base and maybe an inch off the top allowing the complete set up to be 6' in length. According to Aftco's site, the Wind Ons fit on blanks down to 12/64ths tip so it should be fine. If anything I could always do a little grinding of the first roller's feet.

Weight of the rod isn't a major concern because I plan on using a harness and plate.

I am most concerned with quality of the rollers. i.e. no bending of the frames, not rusting after one season, bearings not wearing out after one season, rollers being gentle on the line and also being able to take some abuse.
I am thinking I need the clearance in the guides because I am not sure of what connections I will be using. Need to get out there and figure what works best so I don't want to limit myself. I plan on running 130# hollow spectra spliced to 80, 100 or 130# mono with either a loop connection or wind on bearing to 130# fluorocarbon leader. I think this will allow me to change in different leaders when necessary based upon conditions or break-offs.

My real question is I like the reputation of the Aftco products, but I like the styling of the Pac Bays. If the PBs are just as good as the Aftcos then I will go with them. If they are not then I will go with Aftcos as I prefer quality over appearance. My limited experience with PB tells me they are not as high a quality as Aftco, but if others can vouch for them I will give them a try.

Hey Bill

First sentence:
"I am in the process of selecting components to build a heavy salt water stand up rod and need advice on roller guides."


Seeker and Calstar are using the heavy duty series Aftco guides on their rods with rollers. You probably know their reputation. Roller guides do require more maintenance to keep the rolling freely. Since you are using the Hollow Spectra then stay small on the guides. The heavy duty guides are more than enough. I only use the wind on #47 stripper guide to gain the height needed for a Avet 50 class reel. Personally I don't like the wind on leader bearings I have had them cross up in a roller guide when a Blue Marlin made a jump at the boat and a little slack was given then taken back real quick. From then on I either use line to line connections or long leader with ball bearing that require a leader man to handle. But 95% of the time it is line to line wind on.

Thad
Dutchman's Creek Tackle

Good advice on the bearing swivel. Funny, I am building this rod for an Avet 50W. Or to put it another way, I am buying an Avet 50W for this rod I am building. :-)

Tom,

With the extra info you provided, I say go with the wind-ons. You will have to work over the guide feet on the guides closest to the tip, but that's no big deal. I just completed 3 similar rods on Cal Star 6460XXH blanks and wind-on guides. They have 14mm tips and I found it necessary to massage the edges of the feet, near the tip, in order to fit the diameter of the blank.

Thad,

In my defense, I DID read the quoted sentence, but didn't want to assume that the stand-up blank was going to be used in a traditional stand-up application. That is probably due to my living the East Cape area of Baja, Mexico. Because we have no harbors in this area, most of the fishing is done from twenty six foot or smaller boats without fighting chairs. So, stand-up blanks are preferred here for trolling, as well as lifting tuna from the depths. Sorry!

Thanks for the tip.
Another quick question or two since you have just built some.
What size thread do you recommend? Which Flex Coat for the wraps, Hi Build or Lite Build?

I have always used size D and lite build, but I am thinking maybe the heavy build for this heavy rod.

Tom,
I'm an old timer, so I always use a underwrap of size A thread and double wrap the guides with size D. I only use Flexcoat lite for finish. I've never compared Flexcoat to other brands, as I've never had any problems with Flexcoat, so, "if it ain't broke-don't fix it!" I find that I get better results with several coats of lite finish than I did back when I used the high build. At the time I was using the high build it was the only kind they made.

Okay. Thanks. I will stick with what has worked for me as well.

I also wrap with a Base wrap of A over wrap with D and then a lite layer of finish on the D to give me a smoother surface to wrap a layer of A on top just to give me more color options while using Maderia thread. Bill is right if it is not broke don't fix it.

Bill
I did give into consideration that It may be used on a small boat or on the troll because of the mention of the aluminum butt. Most West Coast Stand up rods are through handle construction as I am sure you are aware and would be difficult removing from rod holders when on the troll with fish on....

Thad
Dutchman's Creek Tackle

This is a thread that I started it may help if you haven't already did a search. There is a lot of useful info in archives.

[rodbuilding.org]

I did use the Wind on stripper and took the advise of the board and went with the heavy duty aftco rollers after. The only reason for the wind on stripper is to gain clearance for the line coming off the reel, your thumb and the long foregrip that a stand up rod has.

Thad
Dutchman's Creek Tackle



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/19/2009 09:56AM by thad peach.

Decided to go with the Aftco HD roller guides. I will post how it turns out.