Hello Everyone,
I am somewhat new at this and am seeking ideas on using ceramic guides on a 3wt. 8'6" RX7 from batson. I have never used ceramics on a light rod before but now I see Micro Guides out there and would love to try them. Anybody have some suggestions or recipes for a 3wt. of this length. Not sure what sizes to use.

I wouldn't use them. Lefty did some testing years ago for Sage and they determined that ceramics on a fly rod DO NOT increase casting distance (shooting distance) and DID "slow" down the rod. Slowing down an 8wt is one thing, slowing down a long 3wt is another all together. I know a local builder who spent tons of money on Fuji SICs for his flyrods who has since gone back to traditional doublefoot snakes with a ceramic stripper. In my opinion, tradition is important in a traditional sport. That is why I usually reach for a cane rod, unless I have reason to fish one of my plastic rods, like big river nymphing.

Double foot snakes?! Double foot snakes require twice the wraps and twice the thread finish of a single foot snake (or single foot ceramic for that matter) which negates the advantage of the lighter weight wire guides. I have two virtually identical 9 ft. 5 wt's and know for a fact that the one I built with ceramics shoots line further than the one with single foot snakes. For me the added advantage of ceramics is they impart far less friction than conventional wire snake guides do and thus extend the life of my flylines. If you CC your 3wt. blank and determine it has an ERN of 4.0 or more, adding Ceramics will help tame this over-powered blank and after adding these guides, you will likely find a drop in ERN that will allow the finished rod to load more quickly and behave better with an actual 3wt. line. If however I were building short (7'6" or less) AND lightweight (3 weight or less) flyrods I would likely use Single foot wire snake guides - especially with an ERN of 3.0 or less. This is where I would like to maintain utmost sensitivity and the most reduced weight. Your 8'6" 3 wt. blank may very will benefit from ceramics and If I were building it I would probably consider the Titanium frame SIC Concepts from Fuji in a size 4 ( as long as my leader to line connection can pass through).

Funny to hear Lefty's name mentioned with the word tradition, when in one of this videos promoting his line of flyrods he mentions that they eliminate the tip-bouncing found frequently in other graphite blanks and all "traditional" bamboo rods.

Lefty's tests were done in the late 1970's with very heavy early AL type ceramics - I still have the letter he wrote me with his findings and I think it's dated from 1978 or something. Things have changed a great deal since then.

Cermics will work great on your fly rod. But you can't go any smaller than a size that will allow your line and connections to pass. You may find that a size 6, or perhaps 4, will be as small as you can go.

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Double foot ceramic stripper with single foot wire guides in chrome
Or maybe Fuji Titanium

Bill - willierods.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2009 02:01PM by bill boettcher.

John - as Tom stated, size of the guides will be controlled by the line and connections, however you want the smallest guides that will do the job.

I've built several fly rods with ceramics and won't personally go back to wire guides. you'll probably want to get several sizes and see which works best for your needs. I've got a 6'10" 4 wt that I've overline with a 5 wt line for closeup work that I built with Titan size 5s and it does the job.
4s MAY very well work for the 3 wt.

Well, one thing we can ALL agree on....everybody has an opinion. I would just ask one hypothetical question about single foot snakes. If they are so good, take half as long to wrap and finish them (which we can agree they do), and shoot line as well as claimed, then why haven't they caught on with the vast majority of commercial fly rod companies? Loomis does use them on some rods (only 3 rod series now, used to be ALL of them), ditto with St. Croix (only found on 1 rod series), but Sage, nor Winston, nor Scott, nor T&T, nor Orvis, nor TFO, nor Redington, the list goes on and on, don't put them on their rods. It seems to me that if the performance was there, PLUS the added ease of manufacture, they would all use them. Interesting that the companies who market rods other than flyrods, with the exception of TFO and Redington, are more apt to use the single foots. The companies who only market flyrods, use dble foots.

As far as the connection size issue goes, you could convert to using Dave Whitlock's "No-Knot Connection" described here:

[www.flyfisherman.com]

Essentially you connect your leader directly INTO the end of the fly line and lock it there with Zap-A-Gap. It is VERY slim and would reduce needed guide size substantially.


Walt



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2009 03:23PM by Walt Natzke.

John,
I like an Alps Lite XN double-foot stripper, then all Alps single-foot running guides. Aluminum oxide rings. I've been talking to Bob at Custom Tackle about Batson micro's on a fly rod, he has some practical knowledge, give him a call.
Tom

Tom White
Rod & Reel Restoration

I recently had the opportunity to wrap a five weight sage tip section that was identical to a factory wrapped section with snake guides. I used fuji alconite size 6 blag guides. The tip section i wrapped was lighter than the factory section due to using less finish epoxy on the single foot alconites. Had I used single foot wire guides it would have been even lighter. The epoxy used in finishing wraps adds a good deal to the final weight. You can easily see the difference if you wrap different guide and epoxy configurations to a piece of scrap blank and then note the additional weight each individual configuration adds.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

That may be true, but I again ask the question, If the performance is better, and it cost less to manufacture, why don't the big companies do it?

Maybe they tried and the buying public didn't "buy-off" on the idea. I know those that did try it on production rods used to harp the performance advantages, but except for Loomis, they don't use them anymore. Why?

Now, don't get me wrong, if you WANT them on a flyrod, than put them on a flyrod. Personally, I don't like them. I tried single foots, and ceramics, and I just prefered the look of traditional snakes. If they offer any real performance improvements, I still think that in a competitive market where each company is trying to build and market the next casting gun (see Sage TCX) that sell for $800, the cost of ceramics would not be an issue.

I better shut-up of I am going to get banned from this board!

No one has ever been banned from this board for disagreeing - as along as the conversation remains civil and friendly, you can disgree or even argue all you like.

The commercial fly rod makers are somewhat bound by what fishermen expect a fly rod to look like. After decades in use, double footed snake guides are the accepted norm in what fishermen expect to see on a fly rod. It's easier to sell a rod with double footed snake guides to the average fly fisherman, than to spend money educating folks on why a different type guide might show them some advantage. As you said, "I just prefer the looks of traditional snakes." So too, do most fly fishermen. (Keep in mind, however, the traditional fly rod guide is the ring and loop, not the snake guide.)

On the issue of casting distance - friction is created when surfaces are forced against each other under pressure. A fly line slipping through guides isn't really being pressed into or against the guide surface. At least not to any great degree. This is why a set of guides made from paper clips is apt to give you just as much distance as a set of snakes, single footed wire guides, ceramics, etc. But the guide choice has more to do with all around benefits than it does with casting distance. Ceramics don't wear out, wear your expensive fly line less and are generally "quieter." This is why many custom builders prefer them.

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I have used and built fly rods with both snake and single foot guides and prefer the single foot. It is personal preference only can't really tell the difference in casting. The rods I have built for charity raffles I have always built with snake guides because there are so many traditionalists in the sport. Build the rod the way you want it that's why it called a custom rod. I prefer the look of the single foot ceramics with a thread wrap near the blank color and dark guide hardware on a dark blank just makes for a very good looking rod. I have a 6 wt St Croix snake guides, an 8 wt st Croix and 4 wt Talon with single foot guides. the 8 wt works great on steelhead and i prefer the 4 wt for most of my trout fishing. That is because the stream and fish size work reealy well with the 4 wt not because of the guides.

This argument is a lot like the pin & clips and open oarlock argument whitewater boaters have. There is no right answer.

Man Tom, talk about traditional! Ring and loop guides....got any sparte basswood sitting around, I want to make meself a new flypole!

We did an article some years ago about making your own fly rod from Western Red Cedar, once the preferred material for fly rods. It was something you could do in your own shop without buying any special tools. Very interesting and the finished product is a lot of fun to fish with, just to get an idea of folks used to fly fish in the mid to late 19th and very early 20th centuries.

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WOW !. This was the first time I've ever posted something on the internet. I am impressed with the amout of information and enthusiasm that all of you shared. This thread seemed to turn into a good old fashioned debate at times. I've learned something from each and everyone of you that participated. I've got some ideas rolling around in my head thanks to all of you. I would like to mention that I called Custom Tackle as per Tom W. advice and found them to be a wealth of info just as he stated. I recieved more info than I ever thought I would, If you guys would like to keep posting I'll certainly keep reading. Thanks again ALL of you guys! (PS Iwas so trilled reading all this today I even Ordered a subscription to RodBuilder this afternoon)

I personally love ceramic guides on a fly rod. Maximum casting distance had nothing to do with it. The good guides are better for shooting with little line out, shooting on the back cast, mending line, actually fighting fish, etc. It takes less effort to make the short and medium length casts that we do all day when we fish. On a light rod like a 2 or light 3 wt I now use a combination of guides. I use ceramics up to the tip section, then single foot wire guides for the top 2 or 3 guides. My main fishing stick is a 4 wt with titanium SICs all the way to the top and a titanium SIC top. Love it, But I don't buy that expensive a guide for most of my rods now that there are so many other choices avliable. I am currently building a glass 3 wt, and am testing a setup that has 5 ceramics, 3 single foots, and a Recoil top. It feels real nice so far. I may go to 1 more ceramic and 1 less wire. I am going to test it again before I add the trip and coat the wraps.

I personally don't think maximum casting distance is a good way to evaluate guides on a fly rod. There are just too many variables in fly rod casting distance. I built several fairly heavy rods, 8 and 9 wt, and I tried snake guides and several single foot guides on one of them. For me, the thing that limited my casting distance was getting enough momentum and the timing right to actually unroll and straighten out the line at the end of the cast. And with a good ceramic guide setup all it did was let me shoot another 10 feet or so of line the falls in a bunch at the end of the cast. I conclude they are a little "slicker" but that that does not help me cast further.

The Rodmaker article on wooden fly rods is still on my bench. One of these days I will get my other projects caught up and build some. Maybe....



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2009 08:37PM by Bill Moschler.

Oh Boy, here we go.

Ceramics DO NOT cost less to manufacture, which is why they are not used. These B I G name manufacturers already charge an arm and a leg for their "cookie cutter" products, so how can they justify charging even more for a rod with better guides (which they don't even make) that require less effort to install? These big companies are all about marketing. You can catch fish using a very low budget introductory factory rod made by any one of these manufacturers. Thier powerful "catch" phrases and technological mumbo jumbo are their to convince the average layman that you need to "upgrade" if you want the ultimate "experience"! It's about as necessary as fashion! You can certainly live the "experience" without it.

Ever take your automobile to a shop to get worked on? They mark up the price of EVERY part used. The same part that cost you $30 in an auto parts store was marked up to $80 in the shop that did work on your car. These ceramic ring - titanium frame guides would be marked up in the exact same manner. I assure you that the price of two foot and single foot snakes are currently marked up in the exact same fashion!! In addition, If two foot snakes take twice the amount of labor for their thread tech's to secure them to the blank, then I'm sure these B I G name manufacturers are more than willing to keep with tradition and incorporate that price into the final product as well. If MY customer insists on two foot snakes, he/she is going to pay for it!

We're here to improve upon the normal "cookie-cutter" offerings in any way possible. Fact of the matter is weight savings offer a noticable (scientifically measureable) improvement in sensitivity and flex recovery as well as a less fatiguing "experience". If we can improve upon a widely accepted misguidence of norm's, why not do so? And in the process why not educate others as to how to think outside the marketing box that is crammed down our throats constantly in so many other arenas?!

my flyrods are a mix and match of both of the above.
Now mind you................the lightest is 6W ( & I just happen to use Loop blanks )
Single foot recoils for 4 guides nearest the tip
Fuji single foot TiSiC for the rest & a double foot stripper.
As others have noted a full set of single foot wire guides cuts the life of the flyline, & I particularly did not like the way any of the wire frame guides dug into the flyline in the mid-section of the rod under load ( the single foot wire guides were the worst at that ).
The rods are smooth both in the cast & with a fish on.
I kept weight out of the important tip section .
The recoils in the tip are matched to the ID of the last TiSiC & I find the line passing thru them on the cast is nice & smooth.

With a fish on the recoils don't put a lot of pressure on the line at the tip section .
The heaviest is a 9wt and gets used with high drag in saltwater ...........an issue that drove me towards ceramic single foot guides in the first place.
with ceramics as all of the guides, I did find the casting performance of the 9wt noticeably lost some crispness.............this led to the compromise mix.
ceramics to snake guides on the tip looked decidedly odd ...............but performance difference to ceramics with singlefoot recoils was negligible and the aesthetics was much better with the latter.

Works for me & the transition of guide types from single foot ceramic to single foot wire guide looks quite neat

Wonderful thing Custom Rodbuilding...................heaps of component choices & you are only limited by your imagination & the time & budget to try things outside the square.
If it works for you ...........its a good rod...................if it doesn't .................. wrapping with different guides is no big deal.

you guys really wouldnt like my ugly sticks.