Rather than hijack the earlier post, I'm going to create a new one.

I'm just throwing this out for discussion... have some thoughts, but no preference either way. More minds think better than one.

Given the discussion between moderate action crank blank vs. faster action popping blank or even a XFast tip...

Does the advent and use of lines such as braid and flouro and the new treble hooks (VMC Sure Set, Triple Grip, etc) change the need for a crankbait blank action? Would braid need more "rod flex"? Would mono require less to achieve the same action?

Why is it that the preference for cranks to be a moderate but topwaters (popR, gunfish, sammy, spook, etc) seems to a faster action? Now I know how a blank loads up working a top water... but BOTH ARE USING TREBLES... so are you just compromising the fighting ability for presentation ability? Why do I not see "I use a moderate action for topwaters because I don't want to rip out treble hooks"?

Discuss...

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Good questions Alex

First, why do you think popping rods have faster actions? My experience is that they are very close to moderate. Depending upon the brand of course.

Second, braid/fouoro vs mono does make a difference in my opinion. Braid/fluoro takes less tip movement (or fish movement) than mono to apply the appropriate force. The longer the cast the more the difference.

Third, the baits you mention, popR, gunfish, sammy, spook, generally have a "stop go" movement where as a moving bait such as trap, crank bait, etc usually has a constant forward movement which applies tension on the line as well as slightly bending the rod. If a fish takes a bait when it is stopped than a faster action would be more appropriate just as it is with single hook baits.

Good points Bobby - thanks for weighing in. Just interested to hear rationales.

I agree with.... "Third, the baits you mention, popR, gunfish, sammy, spook, generally have a "stop go" movement where as a moving bait such as trap, crank bait, etc usually has a constant forward movement which applies tension on the line as well as slightly bending the rod. If a fish takes a bait when it is stopped than a faster action would be more appropriate just as it is with single hook baits."

BUT... Isn't a popR, spook, etc resistance exact the same as a trap, DD22, etc once the hook is set? I hear "I don't wanna rip out trebles" well.. how much differently do you fight a fish hooked on a popR vs one hooked on a trap? So is this saying the moderate action for crankbaits is for presentation?

If we;re saying the faster action is for the hookset.. you don't usually set the hook on a topwater until the weight of the fish... much like a crank.

Again, I know what works for me... just doing my usual questioning the reasons behind behind certain things.

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I have an 8 footer Moderate action graphite popping blank Crank rod that when I first started using it, I was loosing a lot of fish.

What I learned was that because of its slower action I wasn't getting good enough hook sets with mono to drive the hooks in far enough to keep fish buttoned.

Switched to Floro and cured the problem. So I would say the line affects results. Now whether that mandates a change in blank design I can't say, but it pays to experiment with different lines when not getting the results you want.


I would also say that a faster blank aids in working top waters in that a faster responding blank allows me to more effectively work the bait, and get it to respond dance, pop, walk or whatever one prefers to call it. But that is just my opinion on the subject.
There may be others who prefer a slower blank finding that aids them



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2009 10:21PM by Steve Gardner.

Alex,
First on the line question. I would never recommend someone fish braid on a crankbait....it just doesnt make sense, sure you could get added depth, but the lack of stretch WILL cost you fish. If you need more hooking ability due to a VERY long cast I would go with Floro. Again, it is all dependent on where you fish. For me I rarely need a long cast w/ a crankbait, so I stick w/ Copolymer line.

As for topwater blank action. Well, first I would add jerkbaits to that list also. I prefer a similar blank for both. I like a medium fast or x-fast. And yes, it is a trade off for presentation vs. fish fighting. However as Bobby mentioned fish tend to hit jerkbaits/topwater while they are paused, if you have the right bait/cadence/color etc. dialed in the fish will eat the bait well, as long as you give them a moment to do so (think frog delay) and then sweep the rod to the side. When fishing a crankbait/rattletrap the bait is generally moving when it is hit. I think fish (especially smallies) have a tendancy to swipe at cranks more than topwater/jerkbait. I find that I tend to get more hooks in a fish w/ jerkbaits/topwaters than I do with a crank. With that in mind I feel comfortable fighting those fish with a medium or xtra-fast rod. For me being able to present the bait properly trumps any slight advantage I might have with a moderate action rod.

Scott Sheets
www.smsrods.com

For Cranks that do have a constant motion fish hit them on the move and it is more of a smash and grab and seem to be hooked in funnier spots. Don't get me wrong you will hook fish outside the mouth with topwaters but less than with cranks.

The reason I like a slower actioned rod for cranks is for two reasons. One is with a soft rod it lets the crank get the full depth it can dive. The other reason is that I use light line 8-10 lb test line and having the softer rod helps combat the run with the light line.

But with a jerkbait which is basically the same style of bait I prefer a faster actioned rod for all of the opposite reasons.

When my cranks are dialed in right... the crank is in his mouth.

I've seen lots of fish blow up on a topwater and get sidehooked too.

Scott - I only use braid on topwaters and haven't lost a fish since I switched. I actually switched to braid to have the ability to set a hook on a long cast. Fluoro sinks and mono stretched too much. Now I don't on cranks, but thought I'd throw that in about topwaters.

Ked - If the moderate action is to help the lure run at an appropriate depth, why not a slow action?

Again, just challenging wisdom!

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Steve's comment about hookset is key-if you're not getting penetration past the barbs it's just a matter of when you are going to lose the fish. Rod action/power has to be a function of lure/hook size/line size/cast distance and depth to achieve success. Hooksets less effective at deeper depths because of friction between line/water. Short casts in shallow water-more effective hooksets with because of less line stretch with less distance. Components have to be matched to situation.

Alex,
The world of fishing is wrought with theories…..having said that, I believe two of the conditions we try to solve for when fishing crankbaits is: One, being the fact (?) that Bass (or any other fish) will often chase prey (or intruders) and nip at the tails. These would be the ones that are apt to be lightly hooked. Obviously, a strong hookset or stiff actioned rod would be more likely to pull hooks free. The second being, that many times a fish will engulf a lure, and in a very short period of time, reject it before the fisherman can react, or even detect it. This was filmed back in the early 70’s by Glen Lau and Bob Underwood.
I fished many tournaments back in the 70’s and early 80’s and crankbaits were my most productive baits. What “worked” for me was moderate action, stiff tipped rods. Granted, rods are better than they were back then, but for some reason, it still works for me…even with braid….maybe ‘cause the Bass haven’t changed. Of course, I do lose fish, but I rarely fail to “feel” them (snicker). I realize that this goes against popular opinion, but you asked.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2009 11:10PM by jim spooner.

I also use strictly braid on my 2 glass cranking rods. I fish natural lakes and primarily crank weed flats and edges.. the braid cuts the weeds nicely with a few quick jerks to clear the line. It is extremely rare for me to loose a fish on a trap or crank using braid on a glass rod.

Regards,
-Justin

One of the words in Alex's title of this post was Evolution -

One form of evoluion that is taking place on this Internet Forum is the quality of conversation concerning bass fishing and the rods for the specific tasks. Two years ago the dominant advice, on this board, for custom builders related to building rods for bass fisherman was to steer clear of them - they broke to many rods!

This forum now has more information for bass fisherman that many forums that specialize only in bass fishing.

Thanks you guys are really doing what I intended. Opening up about what you like and what works about crank rods. I just threw out a question to gte some discussion flowing.

Jim - sometimes that popular opinion needs to be spun around a couple times! You also touched on something else... the need for sensitivity. Seems sometimes that's forgotten on some crank rods. It's awful nice to feel that fish "breathing" on the back end of a crank.

And BIll nailed it. I'm going for the evolution spin. What has cranking turned into? Seems longer rods are also more popular (always exceptions based on location). At least one person here cranks on braid. Now, does Justin need a more forgiving blank because he has less forgiving line?

More questions to ponder when building performance based rods.

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Agree with those that say deciding on a crank rod is dependant on the individual. Both as to skill, experience and also to personal preference. But I do think there are things we can assume will apply for most. A longer rod will usually cast farther which for the big deep divers could be a key. This is where the move to 8' rods comes from. After that you need to decide your priorties and which blank would best fit them. Miss fish at the boat? A slower action and lighter tip would probably help. Have trouble hooking fish? May need to look at action and power and so on. There is no perfect blank for all cranks! I do really like a few that work for me. An old St Croix 6'6" ML power glass rod for lighter baits, the Croix SCIV 7' MHM for mid sized baits and a Loomis 847 for the big boys and a moderate action MH power for "combat" cranking" big square bills and such in heavy cover. I am looking for a new 8' DD-22 blank that will not weight a ton also. I also agree 100% on 9-10" rear grip. Oh and I got an SCIII M power crank blank last year that I think will become a go to for 1/4-3/8 sized baits. And it casts great with micro guides! Topwaters present another set of issues. Need enough power to properly work the bait but usually set the hooks when you feel the fish. However they sitll have same hooks as regular cranks so moderate action helps in my opinion. So if you fish a lot of cranks you may need several different blanks to cover all the bases!

Bill Tune - Check out the XP3 805/965 Popping Blank from the Swampland boys for a great 8' DD22 rod. You can easily build it out to 4 ozs. even without trying and closer to 3.5 ozs if you shave a little weight.

To Alex's original post;
I use popping blanks almost exclusively for crankbait rods and have found them all to be moderate to moderate fast. I also use these blanks for top water and stick baits. The destinction of moving vs. stationary for crankbaits and top waters doesn't apply for me as most of my crankbait fish hit on the pause. I like the slower softer action to absorb the head shakes and surges the fish makes and to keep the treble baits hooked up.

I'd like to address what I call the great fluoro myth and this regards the lack of stretch in fluoro compared to mono. Since fishing fluoro for the first time about 6 or 7 years ago, I've always maintained that it stretched just as much as mono, but of course everyone claimed it stretched much less. The 2007 Tackle Tour Fluorocarbon Shoot Out but this myth to rest. They included Trilene XL in with the fluoros and found it was about middle of the group for stretch. They included XL because it is one of the most popular monos and to provide a base against which to compare the fluoros. The additional "sensitivity" we all feel with fluoro is due to the density and not the lack of stretch.

I fish crankbaits with fluoro, mono and copolymer lines. My favorite is a copolymer for its improved sensitivity over mono and better cost and manageability compared to fluoro. I've also found my copolymer lines are more abrasion resistant than the monos I've used and this is very important when fishing around heavy cover like standing timber and rock piles. But, I will use a very stretchy mono sometimes when fishing heavy timber. I find the extra stretch allows the bait to bounce off cover better and avoid hook ups but gives up substantial sensitivity compared to fluoro and copolymers. It took me a while to find a very stretchy mono, but I found one I like and it works great for me.

Line stretch and rod choice is the last point I'll make. I believe if you use braid, you're better off using a softer rod. You want to absorb as much of the fish's head shakes as possible and if the line can't share the load, then you need the rod to. On the few times I've fished crankbaits with braid, I didn't notice a difference in my hook up percentage, but I did notice a difference in my landing percentage. I recently bought some of Cabela's Si+ braid that has 5% stretch to try. There are times like short pitches into heavy cover or even throwing a crankbait that I'd really like to have that extra stretch.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2009 06:33PM by Robert Russell.

More General Information From One Blank Manufacturer on Cranking Blanks and the Popping Rod Cross Over

Popping rods used for soft mouthed speckled trout on the Gulf Coat have been a long time staple of the fishing rod business and most are in the moderate action range from most manufacturers. This is again one of those subjective areas that the only true comparison from one blank to another related to action would be a direct comparison via the CC Blank Rating System.

Many times when you see IP843 or something similar you are looking at an intermediate modulus popping seven foot blank with a power of 3 and the action will be described as medium. If the manufacturer of the blank is also a production rod company you may find the rod listed in the salt water popping listing and also find another rod listed under a crank bait series with the exact same line wt., lure wt, and physical dimensions. These are very versatile blanks and have many uses. Castaway utilizes the same blank in the XP3 line for popping blanks as well as their production rod series for dura flex crankbait rods.

In both cases, the purpose of the moderate action is to apply constant pressure to the point of the hook during barb set and to act as a shock absorber for the antics of a leaping or jerking hooked fish. Many of these fish are hooked up to at extremely long distances and nice constant application of pressure increases your chance of getting the fish safely in the boat.

The topwater blanks in the XP3 line have a slightly stiffer/heavier action with a slightly faster tip than than the popping blanks.

Approximately 85% of Castaway Touring Staff utilize a graphite based cranking rod in their arsenal



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2009 08:35PM by Bill Stevens.

I thank you all for the education. The experience and knowledge on this board in regards to rodmaking and fishing is much appreciated. My bass cranking skill pretty much amounts to throwing a trap as a search lure, but I have been buying cranks this winter and I really want to use them more.

I happen to have an RX7 IP843 blank and would like opinions on it as a shallow cranker.

Thanks,
Chuck

One thing that is not considered when comparing Floro to Mono, and is the one of the reasons you feel things better and get better hook ups. Is the rate of stretch. Yes Floro will stretch like Mono. But it is harder requiring more energy to stretch, and stretches at a slower rate allowing for more pressure to be applied to the hook during hook up improving catch rates.
Example
You can stretch 1/4 inch wide rubber band 2 ft.
You can also stretch a 5 inch wide rubber band 2 ft.
But, it takes more energy to stretch the later and it will stretch a bit slower because of the resistance of the later.

Steve,
The Tackle Tour testing showed that Trilene XL stretch was about average when compared to the 14 different fluoros they tested. They used a steady rate pull of 3 pounds for all lines. They don't mention time, but I'm sure they measured at the same interval. Some fluoros like Seaguer INVIZX stretched substantially more while others like Sunline Shooter FC stretched substantially less, but overall, the Trilene XL was about average, within a percent or two of nearly every fluoro line they tested.

Robert



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2009 10:00PM by Robert Russell.

"We found, after subjecting our test lines to a constant load of 3 pounds over a length of time just long enough to measure each samples' change in length and write this value down, all but one fluorocarbon product failed to recover fully from the stress and had permanent strain or deformation." [www.tackletour.com]

Robert and Steve, it sounds as though they took the measurement after the line finished it's stretch. Their results also make me wonder about the effects of repeated stressing of flourocarbon lines. Regardless, the article made for a good read.

Joe

Chuck that one is fine and is used by many as a cranking rod - I have built several - that blank was originally set up using the old Allstar popping blank features many years ago. Bob Batson liked the Allstar blanks so much he made arrangements of some kind and and got involved with them - we purchased the Allstars through Rainshadow before they started producing them in the Cascade plant. These popping blanks have a long long history. The primary differences in the newer listings are lower overall weights and more tip section durability due to multi modulus construction.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2009 09:04AM by Bill Stevens.