Hello....I'm having a problem attaching the tip top to a St. Croix blank on a new rod I'm building. This is my fourth rod and the first three went well and the "tips" have held up under fishing conditions. Here is the problem....The tip size according to St. Croix should be a 5.5, It goes on the tip of the blank but there is no "play" when it is seated all the way on (before glueing). I applied heated glue as before but it seems that most was pushed off the blank as I pushed the tip on the blank. Several days after attaching it I noticed that it could be moved. Would there be a problem if I ordered the next larger tip size "6" for this rod. It would have a larger diameter tube and I would think more glue would stay in the tip to bond to the blank.. Your comments and suggestions will be appreciated.

That's one of the reasons why close fitting tips and hot melt glue don't always work so well. The high viscosity of the glue, and the squeegee effect as it cools, sometimes means not much remains in the tube. I use 5 minute epoxy for all my tip tops, and after mixing, put it into the tube with a needle. Spin it right around to get the inside well coated. Scuff the rod tip with Scotchbrite, and put her on.

You could also try cutting thins slivers of the hot melt glue, or extruding thin lines from a glue gun. Put one of these in the tube, then heat the tube and install.

prep the tip of the blank I use 220 grit wet dry sand paper. Just get it scuffed. Then get a drill bit and run it though the tube of the top to scuff it a little. As said 5 min epoxy into the tube and a little on the blank.

At least some glue needs to be placed inside the tiptop tube. This is true no matter what type adhesive you're using.

One little "tip" that might help - you need to heat the tiptop tube itself for a few seconds (don't overdo this) so the glue inside softens. Just heating a glob of hot melt on the end of the blank and pushing a cool tiptop onto it doesn't work so well.

..............

Ted and Bill: I thought about using epoxy but was concerned about having to replace the tip if the ring was ever damaged. How do you get the old tip off if usisng epoxy? Thanks for your advice.

Tom: Thanks for the "heating the tip" suggestion. I'm certain that will enhance getting the glue in the tube.

bob,

the manufacturer will give you the tip size of a blank, but know that blanks are never going to be EXACTLY the same. for example, the 844 i use calls for a 5.5 tip size, but when i order, let's say 20 of them, i'll have to use 5.0, 5.5, or 6.0 on the same exact model of blank. the way to combat this is to have an assortment of tip tops instead of purchasing them "per order"

hope that helps

Thanks Lance.....I wasn't aware of the variations in the same rods.......just assumed the manufacturers info would be accurate. I appreciate your information and suggestion. Regards, Bob

The manufacturer's is correct. Do you think they have time to measure all Tiptops for the hundred of thousands of rods they make? I believe they use epoxy to install like one responder suggested at least that is what I have observed from several visits to Rod Manufacturers. I use 5 minute epoxy and bet the majority Custom Rod makers use the same. You only need to use heat to remove the tip top and if you use my tip for removal method made some time back on this board it will come off with no problem.

Kerry

First of all, use a good two-part epoxy. If you're worried about future removal, don't be - the tip can be heated and the the tip-top removed just as well as with hot melt glue.

NEVER use hot melt glue. By definition, the stuff starts to unglue itself under enough heat. Direct sunlight on a boat deck will start the process.

You want enough space in the tip-top tube so that it fits snugly but without binding. It MUST NOT scrape any finish off the tip fo the rod when it is fitted up. You do want to scuff any finish off the tip, VERY GENTLY, to provide a better purchase for your epoxy. Fill the tube with epoxy and put a little bit on the rod itself. Put the tip-top on the rod. There will be some excess. Wipe it off. Set the rod up so that the tip is perfectly aligned with the rest of the guides. Let it cure (not just dry) for 24hrs.

We always set the rod up in a drying motor and support, or on our rod lathe, so that the guides are perfectly aligned DOWNWARDS, and we use a level to make sure the axis opposite the guides is spot-on. The we apply the tip (yes, this is upside down for a casting rod) and make sure it too is perfectly vertical and still lined up with the rest of the guides. The we let it dry for 24hrs. Before the glue gets tacky gravity will ensure that it hangs straight down. And that's another reason why we don't fit the tip-top too tightly - it has to be able to be adjusted or to settle in to its final position during this process.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2008 12:30AM by Russ Pollack.

Thanks Russ....really comprehensive information...my problem is solved with all the responses. Regards, Bob

Russ I am going to take some exceptions to your post. As evidenced by Mr. Swindel's post it is clear that this board is used by many rodbuilders as their reference source when they need information. I have absolutely no problems with anyone outlining how they do things. When the words and phases like "first of all" and "never" are used to lead new builders in certain directions the text should be factual. Your post advising rod builder to never use hot melt systems is counter productive to established rod building techniques. There are tens of thousands of rods built a day utilizing hot melt glue. When used properly hot melt products provide all the needed benefits required for those rods. If you go back to Mr. Swindel's original post he refers to a St Croix 5.5 tip top. I hope that he uses a hot melt for that particular blank - if he uses five minute expoxy as per your instructions maybe he will ask you for reimbursement for the SCIV or V tip damage when he applies the heat to get it off.

If you want to use five minute on all rods there is nothing in my text that says not to - for certain rods I use it as well. In rod building there are two sides to most of the coins involved.

Other comments in your post that appear to me to be uncommon or not understandable.

"Place tip tops while rod is on drying motor or lathe"??
"Wait 24 hours for cure"??
"Unglue while on boat deck"??
"Better purchase of epoxy"??

What about those builders who place the tip top before guides?

Kerry: If we quantify your "gamble" a little - and change it to the number of rods built by those who identify themselves as custom builders in all categories - I will call and raise! (MJ on this one I think "All In" is a no brainer)

Bob S. Flex Coat now has a new product that makes the assembly quite simple. They are manufacturing the high temperature hot melt adhesive in the form of a small diameter rod. It is quite easy to snip off a piece of the adhesive rod with a pair of scissors or razor blade and slip it into the tube of the tip top. It will fit into the 5.5 top you have quite nicely and will insure the you have the proper amount of adhesive to make an attachment.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2008 04:57PM by Bill Stevens.

Bob,

The specs are target specs, the actual blank may be a bit different owing to the hand labor involved in making a rod blank. They're not extruded nor machined, they're rolled, wrapped, heated and then hand sanded. So variations can and do occur in sizes.

Hot Melt glue is extremely suitable for use on tiptops of all kinds. Don't worry about that - but you do need to get the adhesive between the tiptop tube and the blank and I think you've been given some good ways to do that here.

One additional tip - when you coat your tiptop trim wrap, extend the epoxy finish up onto the tiptop tube by 1/8 to 1/4 inch. This helps to lock it in place (if it even needs that). Removal only requires that you scrape that little bit of epoxy from the tube and gently heat the hot melt adhesive until it lets go.

...................

There are various temp hot melt glues available. I would guess that probably a very high percent off all tips are put on with hot melt glue with no problems. The key (as it is with any adhesive, is to get the glue inside. I use a craft hot glue gun to run out long thin starnds of hot melt glue on a sheet of was paper and when dry just fill a container with them. When installing a tip, I just stick a piece down the tip, heat with a lighter and push onto the tip. Never had any problems. I used to use 5 min epoxy, but for ME, it showed no benefit for the time/work involved.

I'm with Bill, Whatever way works for you is fine and I would never presume that my way is the only right way!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Put me in the category of using hot melt glue to glue my tips on. Granted there are times that I use 5 minute epoxy to glue certain tips on and trolling and stand up rods are that exception. I certainly can't and won't wait 24 hours after gluing a tip with 5 minute epoxy, Fifteen minutes to set and do what you want with the rod and the tip will not loosen.

The best hot tip glue I've ever used is Flex Coats brand. Now you have to get the glue in the barrel of the tip and have it hot enough to surround the tip of the blank and when it's on properly short of leaving it in a 110 degree vehicle in mid July it won't come loose, I certainly haven't had a tip come loose sitting on the deck of my boat and I've spent countless hours standng on the deck of a bass boat in that July and August heat.

I don't like using the word NEVER because I do things in my rod building business that some people claim you should NEVER do and I do just fine with it. Once you learn a certain technique and feel comfortable with it, just stick to that technique but just DON'T assume that it's the ONLY way.

Lance

To all who responded .....I sincerely appreciate your comments and the information you have provided. I'm going to secure the "tip top" on now and doubt that it will ever come loose again. ......however, if I should need to replace it, I now know exactly how to perform the task. I continue to be impressed with Toms' website and the knowledgable and caring rod builders who use it. Congratulations to all. Best regards, Bob Swindell

Bill Stevens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
When the
> words and phases like "first of all" and "never"
> are used to lead new builders in certain
> directions the text should be factual.
________________________________

bill, i agree. too many people here think that the way they do things is the "law" or the "bible." theres more than one way to skin a cat or cook a gumbo.

Bill Stevens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Bob S. Flex Coat now has a new product that makes
> the assembly quite simple. They are manufacturing
> the high temperature hot melt adhesive in the form
> of a small diameter rod. It is quite easy to snip
> off a piece of the adhesive rod with a pair of
> scissors or razor blade and slip it into the tube
> of the tip top. It will fit into the 5.5 top you
> have quite nicely and will insure the you have the
> proper amount of adhesive to make an attachment.

Bill, that sounds very handy. I tried finding it from some of the sponsors. Where did you get it from?

I got my supply from Roger at the Flexcoat booth in High Point. They were packaged in a bundle pack with brushes and cups. They were new and experimental when I got my supply. Contact Flexcoat and leave a message with Roger or John Anderson. He has figured out a way to extrude the rod and it is a lot simpler and more consistant than trying to use a glue gun to heat the stuff up and make a string in a pan of water. The strength of the hot melt is at a maximum on the first heat up and furthur heating will reduce the strength of the bond between two surfaces. I have ofter wondered if those having trouble with the bond are heating the stuff more than one time when installing a tip top. The ahhesive rods really are the cats meow... all you need do is snip of a piece and stick it in the tube for heating. Maybe Bob McKamey or anyone else who thinks they have control over Roger can convine him into coming on the board and giving all of us a good answer. Maybe he will dictate a message to John!