Let me say up front and right off the bat, I have an agenda here.

These are not trick question but I do have a goal for myself at the end of this discussion.

I have been thinking about the issue of weight vs sensitivity as it relates to my rod building. At the end of this discussion I plan to take your comments and opinions and formulate a hypothesis to help me better formulate my own opinion as it relates to my rod building. So I hope a bunch of you chime in. I want the views of a large number of fellow builders.

I intend all of these questions to be for rod building in general. If you give a specific example for a specific type of rod or fishing please state what rod or situation you are referring to in you answer. These first few questions are going to be pretty basic but please bare with me. I really want o get all the facts, even the common sense basic ones.

First question.

1. Why does a rod need to be sensitive? or in other words, what does having a sensitive rod allow you to do or feel that you don't get with a less sensitive rod? I often hear the mantra, "the lighter the better for sensitivity", Why?

NOTE: I am not asking or questioning the relationship between weight and sensitivity but the need for sensitivity.

Other questions will be coming as the discussion goes along.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

Ray

Ray Cover
My Projects Blog
[raycover.blogspot.com]

It is generally assumed that the better you can feel your lure, bait, etc., the better you can detect fish strikes/bites and discern between a fish and a rock, stump, bottom, etc.

Generally, a lighter rod, or one with a higher stiffness to weight ratio, will be more sensitive. Although there are many other variables involved.

Sensitivity is made up of many aspects of which "feel" is but one element. Visual movement of the tip and line movement in the water are other aspects that can be equally important depending upon the particular fishing method.

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For myself, a more sensitive the rod is the more I am going to be able to tell what my lure is doing under the water. Where I really want the most sensitivity is on my bass rods that I use for jigs and soft plastics. I want to be able to tell the difference when the lure is going through grass, mud, hard bottom and such and in general I need to know how the lure feels without a fish in all these situations. So when somehting different happens or feels different, it is usually time to set the hook. If I cant tell what is happening with the lure, you are not going to know when to set the hook.

I hear clucking out there. :-) 40 people have viewed this and only Mike and Tom have answered.

Ok, so far we have
1. So the fisherman can feel the strike.
2. So the fisherman can tell what obstacles or environment their lure/bait is in (ie hard bottom, grass, etc).

Are there any other reasons or situations that sensitivity is an advantage?

Ray

For me and bass fishing, sensitivity is very important. I'll give you a specific example of how it made a huge difference for me. I have a spot on one of my favorite lakes. It's a section of creek with a few tight bends. It looks good on the graph, but doesn't look any different than other creek turns. After fishing it a bunch and catching some nice fish, I finally figured out why these turns were different. I was throwing a heavy tungsten jig last fall when I realized that unlike most creeks, these sections had a hard rock bottom and the fish were holding and feeding on the rock bottom. I now look for turns with rock bottoms and it has made a huge difference with pinpointing fish.

Many different things impact sensitivity from the rod and all its componets, reel, weight, line, lure... I want the most sensitive rod I can reasonably build.

OK To keep things moving I am going to ask my second question.

Since all the reasons given so far deal with what goes on with the lure/bait on the other end of the line:

2. Is line tension needed to transmit this information from the lure, to the rod, to the fisherman's eye or hand?
It seems to me that a slack line would not transmit the vibration or tension change but that certain level of line tension is needed between the lure and rod to transmit that info much like the tin can a string telephone system kids used to play with back when we didn't have x boxes. Is this correct?

Ray

Tom,
Sensitivity has nothing to do with any of our senses other than feel. It has nothing to do with taste, or hearing or smell and you including vision into your definition of sensitivity just makes it impossible to measure or quantify or even to adequately define or understand.

I fish saltwater species, usually bottom dwellers off the east coast of florida (grouper and snapper)

It is typical bottom fishing, but seeing the tip can and DOES play a roll in feel. A lot of times I use a graphite rod with braid and leave the line much more slack than anyone else on the boat.
WHY? I can feel the bite through the combination of the spectra and the graphite helps to not lose any of that subtle vibration. I am able to keep the weight on the bottom thus scaring fewer fish from weight bouncing. The only alternate solution to no weight bounce is to keep the weight up off the bottom approximately 2 times the wave height and it will still move up and down with the boat. In my experience larger fish are less likely to bite when stuff is bouncing up and down around them.

Ray,

1. I don't have much to add to the above. Sensitivity = vibrations transfered to my hand, my brain interprets the vibrations and tells my arms to set the hook.

2. Line tension is very important to sensitivity, as well as type of line. In order for a transverse wave (vibration that moves the rod tip up and down) to travel along the line, there must be tension in the line. This tension is also related to the speed that the wave will travel. The tighter your line, the more likely you are to feel what your lure is doing. A completely slack line (coiled up on the water) wont transmit the feeling at all. When a line is stretchy, it will absorb more of the energy of the vibration, causing you to lose some feeling. When a braid doesn't stretch much like a braid, it will transmit vibration better by absorbing less of the energy.

While I agree with Emory that in a fundamental sense, sensitivity is "quantified feel", I also understand Tom's logic that sensitivity is dependent on the fisherman's definition. It is the job of the rodbuilder to understand the definitions that the angler uses to describe his ideal rod, even if the angler misuses a term. After determining exactly what the angler needs, the builder can then choose to educate the angler on proper use of terms, or not. To a catfisherman sitting on the bank with his rod propped up, a "sensitive" rod may be one with a limber tip that will noticeably move when a fish takes the bait, while a bass fisherman wants a sensitive rod that doesn't noticeably move on the take but gives a noticeable thunk in the handle when the lure or weight hits a fish's gullet.

Joe

Emory,

Many fishermen consider sensitivity to be more than just feel. I have made many "sensitive" rods for folks that keep the rods in rod holders. They define senstivity as being able to see the tip "quiver."

You know I have often said that in order to have such a discussion, you need to define what you mean by "sensitivity" before you begin the discussion.


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Ray,

A rod isn't going to be very sensitive in terms of feel, if the line is slack. And, line stretch enters that equation as well. Many fishermen like braid because it has very little or no stretch or give, so it provides a more positive connection to the rod.

I will add one more thing - a more "sensitive" rod (feel) is generally a rod that is more efficient. It's lighter, stiffer for the weight involved, and less fatiguing to the angler. So sensivity in this regard is a by-product of something that adds to the overall efficiency and pleasant use of the rod.

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Sean,

Just to clarify and make sure I understand what your saying;

What you do is leave minimal slackness so the lure does not bounce and what you are watching/feeling for is for the line to go tight when the fish has it. Is that correct?

Ray

I'll bite! Having tension on the line is the only way to feel the action of whatever is on the business end of the line "directly". When a jig or jigging spoon is the lure of choice then reducing the mass of the rod allows lower mass for the tick of a weed, rock or stick to be more easily felt. When jigging in current a sensitive blank (we'll say graphite vs. glass) would allow the feeling of the jig bouncing on the bottom to be telegraphed to the hands - where a glass blank may not indicate a sharp thump when a fish inhales the lure. On another note - at times one may notice a bite indirectly without tension on the line initially - either by an increase or decrease in slack line as a fish runs towards or away from you.

In the case of a live bait rig (Lindy rig or 3-way) for walleyes and other fish too, the sinker would be the business end you are most directly connected to and it often imparts a load on the rod (through the line) while dragging across the bottom or by the water resistance to line movement while drifting with the sinker just above the bottom. Then one can visual observe a shift in direction or increase or reduction of resistance may indicate a bite. A sensitive rod for this style of fishing would be one that easily shows that the resistance has changed while under a load - in other words the sensitivity of the rod to visually telegraph a slight change would be considered a sensitive rod. In this case using brightly colored line may indicate the strike visually while the load effectively prevents felling a strike. A medium light freshwater blank might accomplish this well on a given day but a stand-up blank would not be likely to do so. Therefore, a stand up blank would not be considered by me to be "sensitive" enough to accomplish the task at hand.

I think Tom has stated it before that virtually everything we do that adds mass to the blank in its original condition would reduce the sensitivity. So the best policy would be to add as little mass as feasible to accomplish the task the rod is to be used for. Clearly this means different things to a person building an ultralight than it does to one building a tuna stick. It also depends to some degree on where the mass lies on the blank - the closer to the butt of the blank the lower the role it plays in reducing the sensitivity.

Just my opinion of course,
Chuck Ungs

Tom,
I agree that in some cases being able to see the line or rod tip gives the fisherman an indication a fish biting but seeing the tip of the rod move is a function of the stiffness of the rod and has nothing to do with the rods sensitivity.

Joe,
You are right. The amplitude of the vibrations traveling up a line are a function of the mass density and the elasticity of the line and the tension on the line. Though not strickly correct you can think of the mass density as the weight of the line and the elasticity as the stretch in the line. And yes as the amplitude increases the velocity of the vibrations decreases or as the amplitude decreases the velocity increases but the velocity is not something that we can feel and so it has no affect on sensitivity.

A tighter line is more sensitive, but I have felt a fish hit a slack line while getting out a backlash. There's little tension on the line because it is in a ball at my feet, yet the line still transmitted enough vibrations for me to feel the fish. Line type and even sometimes brand within the varying types can make a huge difference in sensitivity.

Great Info guys thanks to all of you for chiming in.

OK so lets update this so we can move on to the next question,

Reasons for sensitivity:
1. So the fisherman can feel the strike.
2. So the fisherman can tell what obstacles or environment their lure/bait is in (ie hard bottom, grass, etc).

Things that effect sensitivity: all materials (guides, blanks etc) being equal.
1. Rod weight and as Chuck stated the farther that weight change is to the butt end the less drastic the effect on sensitivity.
2. line tension - the tighter the line the better the vibration is transmitted and a totally slack line is not likely to transmit much if any vibration.
3. Line and lure mass
4.Line elasticity the less elastic the better it transmits

Now I have another question. This wasn't what I originally wanted to ask next but the point about the line elasticity brought this to mind. I guess I will just ask both questions.

Next question:

1. I understand how line elasticity effects the transition of vibration but what about the make up of the line? Say for instance a rubber coating on the line full of air cells to make it float. Could that rubber/plastic coating have a dampening effect on the transmition of the vibration?

2. If you held the line itself in your hand would you feel more or less that having the rod between your hand and the line? Does the rod itself do anything to amplify the vibration or feel?


Ray

Ray Cover
My Projects Blog
[raycover.blogspot.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2008 12:56PM by Ray Cover.

From what I have used for lines, and what I have felt, only mono and florocarbon lines will transmit some type of vibration even when there is some slack in the line. As for braid, as soon as you put slack in the line, you will not feel any vibrations transmitted. So when I am working a jig or soft plastic on the bottom, I don't always have a tight line. I am both feeling for whatever vibrations I can feel through the rod and watching the line as well. WIth mono, the line will move still when there is some slack in the line, but with braid, forget it. I mostly use braid only in applications like throwing a frog over mats of grass or when I will always have some tension in the line.

Remember that a slack line isn't necessarily slack in all instances - sometimes the tension from the water through which it lies means you still have a direct connection. I can easily detect strikes, by feel alone, on a 70 to 80 foot length of fly line with a near 180 curve in it.

Just something else to consider.

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If you hold a tight line in your hand, with no rod, you will have the maximum amount of sensitivity possible. My dad taught me to bait fish in St. Augustine, FL with an old steel rod. I could feel the slightest nibble on the bait because I was taught to run the line between my extended thumb and forefinger just ahead of the reel spool. I wonder how many others used or still use this technique.

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Thanks Tom,

I think you have caught on to where I am going with this.

One more question I just thought of.

How does where you hold the rod in relation to the weight or mass of the reel effect sensitivity?
For example on a fly rod you generally hold in front of the mass of the reel, on a spinning rod most people hold almost over the mass of the reel, and on a bait casting rod most folks hold behind the mass fo the reel.

Ray

I don't know a single bass fisherman that holds the rod behind the reel when using a baitcaster. I'm sure some do, maybe the old guys used to the pistol grips, but it is a position of poor leverage and sensitivity.

Ok, I guess I havent learned my lesson and I am just going to chime in with a simple thought. Since each of use have develoved senses at different levels then I would postulate that sensitivity might be more important to some than others. Example Some people sense of smell is more developed than others so they can enjoy the subtle differences in fragrences than others(like in the movie Hannibal). Same can be said of each of our senses(My hearing is terrible). I am sure some out there have more developed tactile senses and for them sensitivity might be a huge advantage. Some anglers are line feelers and watchers. I would guess the sensitivbity of the rod for them is less important than say the line type which would transmit the feels via the line to the fingers. Just because I bring this up, PLEASE dont take that a me saying lightness or stiffness doesnt matter, I am just trying to interject the possibility that it might mean less to some than it does to others. I also would postulate that some techniques of fishing or species of fish sensitivity is more important than others. Maybe that is why I fish for giant yellowfin tuna so much-Not much need for sensitivity there. Now with my dropshot gear , UL Trout gear and Walleye stuff I do attempt to get the most sensitivity I can. OK so I stuck my neck out. Chop away.