I'm reconfiguring a surf bait heaver (10-foot, 2-piece, 4-12 oz. blank) that I want to build as a spiral (I built is as a spiral last winter, but didn't like the results, so I'm doing it over. You can cay I failed, but I choose to look at it as a learning experience).

I want to build this rod as a simple spiral, but my problem is that I can't find a setup for the first three guides (stripper, bumper, and first 180) where the line doesn't touch the blank. To be more precise: I can't find a configuration where, after I've placed the stripper and the first 180 guide, the line isn't touching the blank without the bumper guide present. I could just keep it this way, and add a bumper, but this is what I did last time (with the bumper forcing the line away from the blank), and I ended up not liking how the rod cast: shock leader knots (when I used them) had a tendency to bang against the inside of the bumper guide, which I found unacceptable.

What I'm looking for is a setup that puts the line, when passing through the stripper and the 180, right in the middle of where the bumper guide would be. Despite a lot of tinkering, I haven't been able to find the right setup. Right now, I'm thinking that I have these options:

- dump the simple spiral for a more gradual spiral setup (like an O'Quinn spiral)
- use different types of guides, and/or different sizes, and maybe different ring heights
- use a metal ring (or something similar), instead of a bumper guide, to keep the line off the blank
- offset the stripper guide (it hasn't worked yet, but it might work with a different size and/or style of guide)
- forget the spiral entirely, and use a conventional guides-on-top setup

For what it's worth, I'm using standard Fuji aluminum oxide casting guides (BNOG). Has anyone else run into this problem/situation, and are there any hints/advice/tips out there?

I'm not sure what you've got there - the line should automatically be right in the middle of the bumper guide. If you choose a very low one, or bend and reshape what you have now you should be fine.

You won't be able to keep the line from rubbing the blank with any spiral wrap method unless you simply offset the first top and first bottom guide so that the line clears to the blank - no transition guides, very much like the Simple Spiral but you do away with the line touching the blank by simply offsetting those two guides to allow the line to clear the blank on one side. This looks odd but does work - I've used that same set up on many stand up rods going back some 15 years or so now. At least give this a try and see if it works for you.

The O'Quinn spiral was adopted early by many surf spiral enthusiasts. It's known to work on surf rods so try that one as well.

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Maybe I'll take a picture and post it when I get home. I'll try to describe it one more time:

To configure the simple spiral, you configure the guides as you would on a guides-on-top rod, then flip everything but the stripper. So far so good.

When I run the line from the stripper to the first 180 guide, the line rubs against the blank for a good three or four inches. This is because the blank itself gets in the way: if the line were allowed to take a straight path between the two guides, it would go through the blank. Any guide, even a size 1 fly guide, is going to force the line further away from its desired (straight) path, and cause casting problems when using knots. I've tried moving the guides around (up and down the blank, and closer and farther away to each other), and can't eliminate the problem.

I'm not sure whether my problem is because this is a surf rod with a thick diameter blank (3/4 of an inch or so), or because I'm using guides too small and/or too close to the blank, or what. I just know that I've read and re-read the simple spiral instructions, and haven't seen that I'm doing anything wrong.

I may end up using the O'Quinn method, but I'm going to monkey around with this a bit more. Thanks for that tip, Tom -- sounds like it should work.

Chris,

The line is always going to run against the blank on any spiral wrap unless you put something there to prevent it. This isn't anything unusual. If you'll read any of my earlier posts where I mentioned using the Simple Spiral without a bumper guide, I also mention that the line will eventually rub a dull spot on the blank.

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You are not doing anything wrong. My instructions never said that the line wouldn't rub against the blank between those first two guides. It said that in order to prevent that from happening you have to put a guide in-between those two, the Bumper. That's what it's there for, to keep the line off the blank.

You could leave it off and just try casting that way, or for a Bumper bend a large ring #16 guide so that it sits very low almost down on the blank itself. I've done this and it works well for me.

Bill's post reminds me - your problem may not be that the Bumper is moving the line slightly away from the blank. It could be that the ring you're using is simply too small to easily pass the shock leader knot. On most surf rods of any configuration, use with a shock leader and knot means that you have to use fairly large guide rings. I know that many of the surf rods I've built over the years will not function well unless the rings were kept to a size 16 minimum. Build a rod with the guides up on top and if they're too small you'll still have that problem with passing the knot that you're having now.

Try it again with a larger Bumper guide - remember it's not the size of the ring that matters for the Bumper's purpose, it's the height. This is why a small ring guide was recommended - so that it would by default sit lower. But you can certainly do as Bill suggests and use a very large ring guide and simply reshape the frame so that it continues to sit low to the blank, but has a large enough opening to easily pass a shock leader knot. That way you'd fulfill both criteria and possibly have something that would work for your particular task.

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Thanks for the help, guys. I'm going to have to sort this out myself through experimentation. I'll add only a couple of things:

Bill Colby Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are not doing anything wrong. My instructions
> never said that the line wouldn't rub against the
> blank between those first two guides. It said that
> in order to prevent that from happening you have
> to put a guide in-between those two, the Bumper.
> That's what it's there for, to keep the line off
> the blank.

I did exactly that, Bill, but what I found during test casting was that in keeping the line off the blank, the bumper guide pushed the line far enough from a straight path that the shock leader knot banged into the inside of the guide ring (the part of the circle closest to the blank). I've tried all kinds of things, and no matter what, the knot kept banging on the ring. I can't come up with a configuration that allows the line to pass through the dead center of the guide ring -- the line always wants to go back to the blank, and ends up on the same side of the ring.

And I'm using big rings for the bumper guide, Tom. I started with size 16 (the size of my running guides), and even tried a 20, which didn't help things. I tried smaller rings, too, figuring that a smaller ring might be closer to the blank, and eliminate the "line push" problem, but they didn't work either.

It looks like I'm going to have a free day Saturday. I'll play with this and post what I find out. Thanks for the input.

Any type of set up is going to put that knot against the ring I'm afraid. The line never travels through the center of any guide ring, no matter where you put it. Gravity won't allow it.

If you haven't tried a size 16 with a reshaped frame, you might give that one a go.

I do know that many use the O'Quinn spiral for the surf rods. Give that one a go too.

...........

One other thought, try upsizing the butt guide.
On Freshwater rods we like a sz 20 or 25, which changes the angle slightly through the "bumper".
See what you think.

Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
mtnron40@yahoo.com
870-424-3381