I got a couple of issue of this Bass produced Fishing Tackle Dealer magazine from a buddy at a local tackle shop. I was going through it and noticed how everybody and brother in the bass rod business is moving to split-grip/no-forgrip rods and all claiming how they introduced this design to the market. Then I saw a Q&A they had there where somebody from Kistler made out like they had invented it. I sent the following letter to them but I don't think it will ever make it to print. But I still think credit should be given where credit is due. It's a shame that custom rod builders will always be subject to being ripped off by the mega rod manufacturers. The big guys always beat up on the little guys.

Following is my letter.

Dear Fishing Tackle Retailer:

In your October issue in the “Ask The Experts” column, someone was wanting to know why rod manufacturers had moved to exposed handle rods. A spokesman for the Kistler Company answered and added that Kistler had been one of the first to bring this concept to the market. Well, they might have been one of the first but they were not THE first. Neither did they or any other rod manufacturer originate the concept.

The split-grip/no-foregrip rod was the brainchild of custom rod builder Rich Forhan. He unveiled that design, and others, in the pages of RodMaker Magazine nearly 10 years ago. In fact, any time I want to see what the future of factory made fishing rods looks like all I have to do is just flip through the pages of a current issue of RodMaker. That’s where these companies are getting all these supposedly “new” ideas from.

Sincerely,

Robert J. Hale
Florida

It's always unfortunate that the people who deserve the credit will never git it and the big companies with fat wallets and big bucks will do what ever they can to claim something they had
no part of just to make themselves look better and more innovative. As I was reading your post I was laughing, watching a Jimmy Houston show and he was using a split grip rod, gee i wonder
what big name company came up with that idea LOL


Fernando Torres, just my 2 pennies worth.

The fact of the matter is that companies and even other rod builders will take good ideas and use them if there are no protections in place. So if this sort of thing matters to you, then you either spend the money to protect your ideas, keep your ideas to yourself, or just try to be first and keep coming out with new ideas in order to stay ahead of the pack.

I think Rich resigned himself long ago to the fact that many of his ideas have and are going to be adopted by major rod manufacturers. Some might give him credit, most won't. But he'll always have the knowledge that he is probably the most influential custom rod builder of all time.


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The fortunate few who subscribe to RodMaker Magazine and frequent this Forum are rewarded in many ways; not least of which is freedom from hype. We are presented factual information and provided clear instruction on many of the latest innovations in the craft of rod building. Credit is rewarded as accurately as possible and the free sharing of these ideas is remarkable. This immunizes us against those manufacturers who feel pressured to take credit for the achievements of others. We are very fortunate to have these resources available. Trying to learn about fishing rods from the ads of many rod manufacturers is like trying to smell roses in the path of a manure spreader.

Dave

First off, I think that it is absolutely WRONG to claim an idea/design as yours when it's not, BUT what about the tons of "custom" builders who build "custom" rods using the exact components, configuration and even thread color as a manufacturer. Are they ripping off the manufactures's??? I'm NOT defending those manufacturer's who claim credit for other's work, in any way - just pointing out that we do much of the same thing! How many of us tell our customer's that the rod that we are selling them has Forhan seat, a Throop tiger wrap, etc!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I have that issue and went back and read that brief answer given by Kistler. I believe someone else brought up this same thing a couple weeks ago.

The gentleman who posted on Kistler's behalf did not claim that Kistler had invented or originated the concept of the split grip. He merely said that they were one of the first companies to bring it to the market. That's true, they were one of the first commercial rod makers to produce rods with that type handle.

While they did not give credit to Rich, I doubt he's up in arms over it. Enough folks know Rich and his work that the originator is not in doubt. The masses may never know where the idea came from, but I suspect Rich is happy just knowing that one of his ideas is helping bass fishermen all over North America fish with better tools. That seems to be his intent.


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Split grips were around in the UK and Europe some 30 +years ago, as was the "no grip" set up-they did not seem new then as manufacturers like Diawa,shakespear, and a few others were marketing rods with split grips. Pre formed grips for split grips were readily available to rod builders at that time too. I dare say if we look back in time we could find Victorian era lemmon wood spinners with split grips in leather -I have no idea really when the "split grip" was invented, but I'm sure it was more than 10 years ago !!
Earl

I think everyone at Kistler knows who Rich is and that he came up with these ideas. Wouldn't have been much problem for them have said "Rich Forhan developed the idea and we adopted it and were one of the first to bring it to the market".

Most surf rods featured such grips and have for many years. They were not normally found on bass rods. The combination of the split grip, no foregrip, spiral wrapped "revolver rods" was brought together by Rich. He has certainly originated new reel seat designs and various techniques and methods used by many in custom rod building.

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I will give full credit to Kistler for the following quote from their company web site: No plagerism here! Direct cut and paste.

"With the combining of graphite “Ampli-fibers” underneath the fingers down to the butt cap, the fish will not have a chance to spit the lure out before you set the hook. More power and sensitivity than ever imagined is now available with the placement of our proprietary “Ampli-fibers”.

With the invention of our new state of the art sure-grip split handle design, you will experience more confidence and stability while setting the hook on big fish. The light weight material in our new handle will allow for even more sensitivity and feel, allowing you to feel bites like never before."

End Quote:

I will immediately harass all vendors and manufacturers until I also have "ampli- fibers" in all blanks from seat to butt.

"Our new design" - I would think that each and every split grip with microns of different dimensions would fit this criteria.

Wait till Kistler decides to market RF Seats and Spirals - no telling what the ad agency will pen for that epistle!

I would think that an appropiate name for Mr. Kistlers new product featuring a complete line of Mr. Forhan's advancements could be " New and Exciting State of the Art Clone It Series". I release all rights to the use of the precedding phrase. Trey this was typed with a smile and tongue carefully placed in the cheek on top!

Gon Fishn

A bit better than sixty years ago I fished the surf with my first fishing rod....a calcutta with a taped on reel and two taped on guides witha top that was glued on [of all things] and I did a fare share of catching the stripers...lets see now...no grips, no reel seat, butt cap,check... just like Huck Finn. To this very day I still use Forhans name on his single foot wraps and split grips on the lighter than surf rods as that is the person that taught me in his articles, it sure as heck wasn't a guy named Kistler.

Tight Lines
Tight Wraps
Fishin'Stix by Fred

Rob,

I'll say this - I doubt they'll print your letter in its present form. There is a better way. If you haven't submitted it yet, you might try something more along these lines...

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The introduction of split grip and/or no foregrip handled rods by most of the major rod manufacturers is in response to consumer demands for lighter, more sensitive and more practical fishing tools. Custom rod builder Rich Forhan was perhaps the first to combine these tried and true handle designs from other rod types into the highly functional bass fishing package that so many rod manufacturers are just now beginning to offer their customers.

The custom rod building craft has long been the breeding ground for many of the innovations and developments that you'll find on many commercially made rods. In fact, fishermen who desire tomorrow's rod today, often need look no further than their local custom rod builder.


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It will still be a crapshoot because they're not in business to promote or market custom rods or rod builders. But I can tell you that taking a shot at one of their advertisers and regular contributors isn't going to get your letter printed. There is nearly always a means to get things done but how you go about it will determine if you're able to achieve the desired end or not.

In defense of Trey Kistler, I met Trey many years ago when he was first starting his company. I was selling rods at the time and I told him that I had a custom rod business going and was doing as much work as I could handle part-time. He told me that at any time I ran short of supplies I could stop buy his factory and buy them wholesale. He told me where he was buying his supplies and who his rod blank supplier was at that time. I know that this has nothing to do with any claims on his web site but I never forgot his willingness to help me.

Funny how this works.

In custom gun making, particularly SxS shotguns, it is quite common for the manufacturers to fully acknowledge and publicize certain features of their guns such as, Greener crossbolt systems, Purdey-style extractors and ejectors, and Anson & Deeley (one or the other, or the design that incorporates both) forend mechanisms. Most of these designs were in fact patented by their inventors as far back as the 1800's, or even earlier. These features are regarded as hallmarks of quality, because they have been proven so reliable over so many years.

Back then, each gun was custom made, even if they were built in factories. There was so much handwork in each piece that no two were exactly the same, and even the least expensive ones were built as tools, as much as posessions. Today, there are a number of custom makers who still do low-volume, custom guns and have built reputations that lend their products instant recognition and respect, and they have no problem giving credit toa the originators of their designs because that lends credence to their proven claims of excellence.

In our little piece of the fishing world, there are several seminal names that instantly come to mind - Clemens, Emig, Forhan, and I'm sure you can come up with a dozen or two others. But what's missing is the patents, the inventions that became household names, the traditions and the wide recognition of the distinct place we hold in a relatively vast market. When rods of cane were king, the makers were reknowned. With the advent of manufactured glass and carbon and other materials and the resulting decrease in price and increase in distribution the place of the custom maker has been somewhat reduced to a specialty. We not only have to fight for recognition but we have to earn every sale if only because of the price difference. There is little recognition of the quality difference amongst the vast majority of a price-conscious customer population. Even the bass guys want you to sponsor them, rather than pay for their rods. If not, they'll go to the manufacturers who will. It doesn't matter if the rods they use can't hold a candle to what we build - when they win, they sell rods. Same as golf.

Bill Stevens often goes off on this subject, and he's not wrong, just sometimes a bit over the top. But maybe over the top is what we need. Rich is above all, a humble person. Believe it or not, most of the best makers were, and are. We get our thrills, I think, from the look on a customer's face when he first sees his new rod. We know the names because we're exposed to them through places like the Show and their books and writings. But how many times have you seen a master builder mentioned outside our "circle" like Billy Pate or Bogdan are for their hand-built reels? Are our rods any the less a meld of art and craft than these world-class reels? How is it that Don Green and Gary Loomis get instant recognition for their place inj the industry when they manufactured rods but never touched the custom market - and now their companies produce most of their stuff offshore, as cheaply as possible?

Well, I'm not as good at this agrument as Bill and some others. So I'll sit down and shut up.

Uncle Russ
Calico Creek Rods

Gary Loomis was a custom rod builder and when he first formed G. Loomis, Inc., he did not offer finished rods, only blanks for the custom rod builder. Don Green is another great guy who was a real pioneer in the technology of rod blank manufacturing.

I agree with your comments and am not taking you to task but I thought these two gentlemen deserved a little better. Hope you can understand.

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If you hang around this fishing tackle world as long as I have, you appreciate the adage 'There ain't nothing under the sun" This is especially true in this industry.

Often, people put lipstick on an old pig, name it after themselves, and publish it as 'theirs' and 'new', sometimes from ignorance, often intentional.

This is especially true with writers trying to sell an article to a publication. The editors, will publish it and sometimes issue a retraction, often not, if challenged.

Learn to live with it! Accept it as part of life. C2

One of the problems that I see in our craft is that a lot of junk is produced and called custom rods. It really takes away from some the fine rods that are produced by some of the masters of the craft. At a show in Houston one year a couple of fellows were selling "custom made rods." Their work was absolutely horrible. One couple walked by and remarked, "So those are custom made rods, no thank you."

I had the good fortune to go on a fly fishing trip in June with Andy Dear. He was using a rod that I had not seen on a previous trip. There were no frills on his rod. It did have a very nice simply made handle. But it had the look of a custom made rod, a fine rod that I don't know how else to describe. It is too bad that we don't see more work like his at shows so folks will see what a true craftsman can produce.

This quote from Tackle Tour was posted and distributed after a very positive article by Zander listing the advantages and disadvantages of one of Kistlers' new bass rods. Kistlers' marketing and attention to the use of media has really succeded in selling his bass rods.

From Tackle Tour:

Conclusion: Is there any more controversial a rod company out there today than Kistler Custom Rods? Many simply loathe Kistler for their preference to keep design and manufacturing decisions close to the vest. Others find it offensive that Kistler borrows on ideas from custom rod builders and offers these features up on production rods. Still more chastise the company for their choice in components. Yet through it all, we consumers benefit from products like the cost competitive Mg TS, the once innovative original Helium LTA, and the now polarizing Helium 2 LTX. Not to mention the products by other rod companies that have seemingly followed suit with some of the same design choices.

What really offends me about Kistler's promotional efforts is how he touts his personal values on his web site but then says misleading and deceptive things about his rods the most ridiculous of which is"ampli-fibers" in his rods increasing the rods sensitivity. He buys the blanks from a blank manufacturer and has to know that is pure nonsense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2007 09:29PM by Tom Kirkman.

He hasn't done anything that most other commercial rod manufacturers, auto makers, ski manufacturers, bicycle makers and every other company involved in the marketing and selling of nearly every product out there hasn't done. The amount of liberty that a person or company wishes to take with their marketing efforts is limited only by their own personal ethics and/or whatever legal constraints someone else wishes to try and place on them. In the advertising world, what Trey has done would simply be seen as "turning a colorful phrase."

I'm not defending him but badmouthing Trey Kistler isn't going to change any of this and it's not what we want to be doing here. In fact, we're not going to do it here. It's best that we all move on to other topics. Thanks.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2007 10:04PM by Tom Kirkman.