I've used a few blank through seats hear and there over the years. I just built myself a new CTS with a blank through and I was comparing it to another CTS without. To be honest, I see no diference in sensitivity. My reason is most likely the way I hold a casting rod-palmed, and with a finger or two sitting on or around an epoxy ramp or blank ABOVE the reel seat.

My question is do the blank through's really make the grip more sensitive to the hand? I know many fisherman hold thier baitcasters the same way I do, and with that in mind, what are all you FISHERMAN'S thoughts on it?

DR

IMO yes! especially for anglers who's hands are not large enough or fingers long enough to hold the blank in front of the seat. Just the fact that theseat mounts directly to the blank with out arbors or tape or fiberglass mesh would also add to it's sensitivety.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2007 09:42PM by Steve Gardner.

What is the material you use going through the reel seat if it isn't the blank, Duane?

Putter
Williston, ND

DR; I, like you , fish palming the reel as does every other bass fisherman that I know. I can't see any advantage to a blank exposed reel seat. I have never used one therefore I may be totally in the dark also. If while palming the reel your pinkie is touching the exposed blank then yes, you might feel the "tap" if you are worm fishing. But, most all my bass rods are built with an epoxy ramp, therefore you are going to feel the "tap" with your fore finger before it gets to the reel seat. If you hold the rod by the grip with your finger on the trigger, yes you will feel the sensitivity. I think the sensitivity will be felt wherever your hand or finger is touching the blank.
The only time I get concerned about sensitivity in a rod is when I am worm fishing, whether it be finesse worming or Carolina rigging and also pitching a jig. Crank baits, Spinner baits, top water, sensitivity is not an issue with me.That's just my thoughts .

Yep,, Steve is right. I forgot about the seat insert in a conventional trigger seat. The sensitivity will be there in an exposed seat with direct contact and epoxied to the blank, It will definitely be there, all the way through the seat.

Steve, you make some good points. Thats why I asked, not everyone has big hands or long fingers, or even hold the rod and reel the same way. I belive the design-no arbor needed-is MORE of a benifit to the sensitivity than the actual hole with the blank coming through. If you could mount a standard seat directly to the blank with no arbor (I have one like this-flipping stick) then would a blank through be more sensitive?

Quote: "most all my bass rods are built with an epoxy ramp, therefore you are going to feel the "tap" with your fore finger before it gets to the reel seat"

Jay that is exactly what I'm talking about. MY hands get the tap BEFORE it ever makes it through the reel seat.

Putter it is the blank itself.



DR





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2007 10:18PM by Duane Richards (DR).

Well Duane, you are your own judge ultimately.
And there may be some difference, but it may also be at a level that is simply beyond your perception as well.
Given your description of hold, you may already be receiving finer vibrations than any seat will give you. Think about how you deaden vibration in materials. Sometimes you clad them. Grip materials sure seem rather insulative to me. They dampen. You with your finger in front of the grip, you probably get more feedback than anything behind the grip ever can. Additionally, as the rod is a sort of lever, a given tap-tap-tap will cause more deflection toward the tip than at the grip.

Anyway, the ultimate judge is yourself and what works for you. There's tons of stuff out there to catch fisherman. And a lot of it doesn't make a dang bit of difference in catching fish.

It's not quite that simple. Any time you pass from one material to another, there is a change in the mechanical impedence and some amount of vibration is reflected back towards the source. The mass density of the materials involved also plays a role.

It's just not that cut and dried. The whole issue of "sensitivity" gets more and more muddled the deeper you get into it.

I think you'd be safe to assume that the fewer different pieces involved, and the more rigid those you have there really are, the more sensitive the rod can be. If you can put your hand on the blank itself, so much the better. But what you have hanging on the butt is still going to play a role, even though you may be in direct contact with the rod blank.

................

Yep....
There may be potential for crossover from highpower rifle competition, ywhere floating barrels and front grips are the norm. Float the front grip on a rod perhaps.

Of course the ultimate solution for sensitivity and fishing rods is to go after fish that can rip the rod from your hands. Nothing questionable like "was that a bite or a small pebble" :-)

Tom is correct. Websters Dictionary defines Impedance as "something that impedes".

Take a bare rod blank and hold it by the butt. Then have someone tap the tip lightly and the rod blank will vibrate.

Then, keeping everything the same, tape a pack of cigarettes or similar item at the point where the reel seat should be and then have the rod tapped again with the same force, the vibration will be damped, compared to the 1st case. This difference is due to a change of the rod's mechanical impedance impeding the vibrations.

Note: The heavier the pack of cigarettes, the more the damping of the vibrations.

Another example is the cannon barrel on an Abrams Battle Tank. It has a weight on the barrel to quickly dampen the vibrations of the barrel when the cannon is fired. Were it not for this weight, the cannon barrel would vibrate at it's resonate frequency, which is determined by its weight, diameter and length.


Rena ( I'd rather talk about things that are Pink)

Absolutely. And put something ahead of that pack of smokes and it will damp things upstream. Which was sorta what I was thinking in terms of the front grip.

BTW,,, similar to your tank analogy, some competitors fine tune the length and weight of their flash hiders on M14's and M16's. Not so much to stabilize blast, but to supposedly tune to some resonant barrel frequency.

All other things being equal, the more of the bare blank I get to touch, the more sensations I feel. I know it's not quite as simple as all that, but that's how I approach it when I'm building a bait cast rod.

I almost always use a Tharp-style split seat, which I make by cutting the middle out of a Fuji ECSM. I palm a baitcast reel with the trigger laced between my middle and ring fingers. This puts my middle and index finger in direct contact with the blank. The middle finger is always on the blank beneath the reel. Depending on the bait being used, the index finger is either on the bare blank beneath the reel, or on the bare blank in front of the front hood (no epoxy ramps, just bare blank).

When I don't cut the middle out of the seat, I only end up with my middle finger on the bare blank beneath the reel. The index finger ends up on the front hood or threads. The difference between two fingers on the bare blank vs. one finger on the bare blank "seems" like a huge increase in sensation. I'd have trouble proving it scientifically, but I feel like I catch more fish.

So, IMO, the answer to the question posted is yes, an exposed blank seat is better than one that's not. And, a two-piece split seat is WAY better than a basic exposed blank seat.

On a side note, you guys who have two fingers in front of the reel must have HUGE hands!

The cats meow is coming !

Watch a top knotch bass fisherman and take note of the "pinched line" and the placement of the off hand while working the bait -

Rich Forhan's book has a lot to say on the subject of RF Lite Seats that is highly appropriate to this subject matter.

Like Tom said earlier it is not a simple matter - which is dominant hand, what side of reel is crank on, is there a foregrip, is there a hozel, is there an arbor, length of barrel, size of cut out, cut out taper to blank radius, fingers in front of trigger, change hands or not, palm or not, grind reel feet or not, total weight, seat coating, seat rear slot depth, hole in trigger for keeper and on and on and on!

A one paragraph note on an internet board may not go into the depth required -

[www.rodbuilding.org]

One final note - it takes "huge hands" to handle a 927F flippin stick!

Gon Fishn



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2007 06:17PM by Bill Stevens.

Not tryin to sound too rude, are you fishin for microscopic fish? What kind of fish are you fishin for that you need that much sensitivity?? Pretty much 99% of my fishin is done from rocky shores or jetties and I build my rods from bass flippin blanks. My lures (texas rigs) are in constant contact with the rocks and I am constantly havin to determine between bumps on bull kelp, rocks and the different kelps that grow off them, short strikes from Greenling and Perch and more often than you'd think, very soft takes from Rockfish (Sebastes), Cabezon and Lingcod which is what I'm targetin. I have used rods with blank throughs and without, palm support, AERO as a castin seat, holes drilled in the trigger, whatever and I have never noticed that much, if any added sensitivity that helps determine if it was a strike or whatever. I have a hard time imaginin a situation that you would need child like sensitivity in a rod, other than fishin for guppies. I'm not sayin throw away your customs and go buy Ugly Sticks (but you can send them to me if you want). If you are that worried about sensitivity why not wrap a plate seat directly on the blank, which I was talked out of doin. I still want to do it, not because of the sensitivity issue but because of a necessity issue. What do you really need? Tip top, guides and a reel seat right? I was told there is a balance issue with this set up but how hard would that be to alleviate? And there is a similar disagreement on that issue as well. Does a counter balance actually add sensitivity or diminish it? I don't see how it could diminish it that much if at all. The feel is comin up the line, through the guides and blank and comes into contact with the reel seat and reel before it gets to the butt, or am I missin somethin?

Let's fish,
Chris

The word "sensitivity" and how to achieve the maximum is probably worth "millions of dollars" in the bass rod business. Most people who build and sell fishing rods are "sensitive" to the needs of the customer! Necessity may sell for $ 39.95 while "sensitive" rods easily sell for $ 300

Really? It seems like more rod companies are using less materials, like no fore grips, split rear grips and chargin more for the finished rod. I really don't get your point about the price. I know of a tackle store that sells Ugly Sticks for $30 while another on the other side of town tries to sell the same Ugly Stick for $60.
"Necessity may sell for $ 39.95 while "sensitive" rods easily sell for $ 300", actually I don't understand this at all. My definition of "necessity" seems like it would be your definition of the ultimate in sensitivity, so that would be like a $10,000 rod or somethin.

Let's fish,
Chris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2007 01:01PM by Chris Means.