I love the idea of the offset handle on a spin rod. I have however never built a handle useing graphite tubing. I was wondering what to use for shim material as the normal graphite shim is already drilled in the middle and with a offset it wouldn't work. I was thinking of taking two or three rings of solid cork and just drilling or rat filing a hole at the edges. anyone have any suggestions or concerns in this regards? I also was wondering what to do for the end the blank protrudes from but thinik I have that figured out by ordering two of the butt end stops and drilling one end out for the blank.

That would work. Or, you can epoxy shut the bore in the common urethane or brick foam arbors and then file an opening coming in from one edge to the appropriate depth.

................

good idea thanks Tom

Guess you can file, but a forstner bit in a drill press is going to be precise and faster too. Forstners are not detoured by edges or different densities within the piece drilled.

Offcenter the drilling at one end from the vertical by the difference in blank taper and you can easily cut an arbor that will precisely orient the handle to the blank centerline, and not to the blank's top taper which will cause a spinning reel spool to be further misaligned to the line path. At least if mounted according to the RBO article and pics. If the seat is mounted such that the entire inner ID of the seat is up against the lower taper of the blank however, the spinning spool alignment can be more closely aligned to the line path than if the seat had been mounted to the blank centerline. Mounting according to the top taper actually points the spinning reel spool downward and away from the line path. .

Most perfect method to offset the handle and be parallel to the centerline? Drill a hole parallel to the arbor, equal to the blank diameter of the small end, and offset from the arbor edge by 1/2 the difference of the blank diameter at the fat and thin ends. Then taper ream the hole in place (or with scrap blank with the same taper, if you like) until the ream just hits the outside edge of the arbor at the end the reamer is fattest. Perfect, cernter-aligned arbor.

BTW.... if in doubt whether your spinning reel has been 'pre-pointed' or not in manufacture, check the parallelism of the foot and spool shaft to one another. If parallel, then may be some benefit to mounting up against the lower taper. If 'pre-pointed' then mount to the blank centerline.
Want to get real fancy, then tune so that the spool shaft points precisely at the center of the stripper (or even a tiny bit toward the rod blank more than that)

So far as arbor material, certainly undrilled is the best option. After that, one with the smallest hole and filled as Tom mentions. You can also offcenter turn an oversized one to end up with the originally certered hole offcenter, but that if more machining pain to go thru.

Dave;
If a person mounts the seat according to you suggestions the blank will end up not being in contact with the top inside of the handle tubing which will have a couple of negative effects

1. The blank will lose contact with the handle at some point defeating part ofthe purpose of this set up which is to keep the blank and handle in total contact for the entire length of the handle so that the palm of the hand is virtually in contact with the blank
.
2. The small gap created by your suggestions will now require a center arbor for support creating extra weight.
And to prevent the blank and handle from creating a creaking noise as the blank flexes against the handle under a load.

In most cases at least blanks you use for bass rods, and most likely all blanks the amount of defection created by the handle following the top edge of the blank is so minimal that it is a mute point. Especially if you use the suggested setup for the “New Concept” guide placement as it printed in this issue of Rod Maker Mag.

By following what you believe to be “Most perfect method” you’ll be creating more problems for yourself then you want.

It isn't a moot point (not a 'mute' pointt) .Folks think about it, they can see the truth in it. You want the simple mount, then mounting to the bottom taper for a spinner makes more sense. Mounting to the top taper angles the reel downward away from the line path.

A minimal difference in angle you say? Then why the argument? You are qualifying it now saying you are talking a subset of blanks too. I suggest you measure. A 14mm bottom and a 13.5mm top, over a 5 inch seat, is a fair angle..People are quite willing to work at cutting a few grams here and there,,,, something like a 3-5 degree point toward the ground, away from the line path is monumental in comparison.

BTW,,, no gap in what I mentioned. It is a single arbor piece with full contact on blank and seat.

You are arguing for the way you do something, in the face of logic that says there is a better way. You are quite free to do as you like. As am I. And when folks ask a question, we are all quite free to answer to our own best ability. The reader can weigh the veracity of the arguments. Some may like to be spoon fed and some will power up the gray matter.

What I believe is lost to you here Dave is the fact that this is a "offset" Tenn. handle. I would and do use the flexcoat drills in most cases myself to drill normal arbors. They however ofcourse have a center predrilled and you know the spot that the blank will sit as its always centered. Then I would normally just hit it litely with a reamer to account for the taper. The situation we are talking about is trying to get the hole so the blank sits against the graphite axactly at the top. It would seem (although its Steves baby and he is the expert on this one) you would almost have to hand reem a sort of "cradle" till the blank just passes the edge of the circle and still touches the edge of the arbor. Is that right Steve? Also what do you use for the arbor material? I was thinking of Tom's idea of filling a graphites whole with rodbond then when dry using it. Or if Bob at C.T. can get me some block turning my own. Also would you use two one at each end or go with the three one at the midle for regidity. I am going to make them only about an inch or two wide as thats all I usually use for tenn handles. I realise this is your signiture and if its giving away any of your secrets I totally understand! If so just let me know and I will try to go it alone as I understand and would not blame you. Thank you so much for sharing it with us in that last issue of rm it was truly eye opening to me every thing about it and personnaly i think it will be the next "Big Thing" and congratulations to you.

There are 'offsets' and 'offsets'. Show me someone who wants to point their spool downwards, away from line path... that's an offset you don't want. And certainly if jumping thru the hoops, it is one that can be avoided.
The reaming I described is nothing fancy. or different than any other reaming. You drill that hole correctly, and you than ream as for any other taper situation. Keep the reamer centered (which yo ushould do anyway) and it all takes care of itself.

Dave;

Thank you kindly for correcting my spelling. Some times my hands type faster then eyes or brain and I make mistakes, thank you for pointing this out. I sincerely hope you feel better now.

The reason I said or meant to say it was a moot point. Is if you look at it based on your figures. Actually looking at the rod from “the blank centerline” as you stated in your first post, your numbers would be 7mm at bottom of handle and 6.75mm at the top. Which are the figures based in ½ the diameter or from the blanks center line.

So over the length of a five inch handle it would be slightly less then .25 mm.

But for ease of understanding for us ignorant builders with less grey mater then you. Lets use 6 inches for the handle and .25mm for the drop

If you stretch that out over the length from the handle to the first guide lets make that distance 24 inches (a little long for bass rods I know, but easier math)

So you end up .25mm drop for every six inches based on six inch handle or one millimeter over the 24 inches from handle to first guide or slightly less then 1/16 of an inch.

That fact if you were dealing in rigid straight line parallels or laser beams1/16” would make a difference.

But as soon as the fixable line leaves the reel it forgets what it is doing and gravity automatically takes over pulling it to the ground. (One of the reasons spiral wraps work so well on bait casting rods). 1/16” of an inch means nothing as the only thing keeping it pointed toward the blank is the guide it is traveling through and not the spool or angle of the spool it is flying off.

Even if we took the blanks whole diameter, based on your figures, you’re still talking about the contact point being less them 1/8 inch drop.

In answer to your other comments
“BTW,,, no gap in what I mentioned. It is a single arbor piece with full contact on blank and seat.”

And BTW,,, there is no seat on the Tennessee. handle Billy asked the question about just tubing

To use a single one piece arbor that runs the entire length of the tubing, to be able to do it as you suggested would create a lot of unnecessarily weight and defeat one of the great advantages of this set up which is the reduction of weight.

“You are arguing for the way you do something, in the face of logic that says there is a better way”

I am not arguing at all, but explaining how I do things and the reasons for what I do.

But after five years of experimenting and testing, certain things regardless of how illogical they may seem (to some one who has not even as much as built a rod on either design). I have settled on this design as the best compromise of all things considered creating the most benefits.

I am always open to better ways and new concepts. In fact I have been in constant contact with one of the manufactures that sponsors this site. About some concepts he is working on and if they end up working out as expected I will again be changing how I do things with my handles. In my opinion the only way to make advances if to be opened minded.

If you in fact build a rod or design that works better then this I would love to see and hear about it. But until then any info you offer is little more then bogus









Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2007 08:48AM by Steve Gardner.

I have been thinking about this thread and if there was an easy way to change the angle on the reel seats. I know that wood is not the preferred method to mount a reel seat, but you should be able to use the same priciple with a solid foam arbor, cork or anything else. With cams you can rotate the position to any angle you desire, be it front high, rear low, left side out, right side in or any position in between. Just thinking out loud. I posted a picture on the photo page. [www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2007 11:08AM by mark blabaum.

Mark;
Interesting thought.
I actually have and ultra light rod that I used smaller diameter tubing on, which I have the handle rotated slightly to the right front and back. I hold the rod with my left hand. That way the blank rests dead center in the crook of my index finger making it more comfortable for me.
I think rotating front to the right and back of the seat to the left might cause some casting problems. Never tried it that way but just seems it would throw things out of site balance some how

By the way you do some incredible handle wood work!
I greatly admire your skills




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2007 05:25PM by Steve Gardner.

Steve - Thanks for the kind words. The discussion is very interesting, I work in the parts dept of a auto dealership. We hand out shims (only in metal) like this to adjust the camber and caster of cars and trucks for alignments. It's just a thought but some times it's the little things that set the custom rod apart from the mass production rods. Steve I have read the last article you wrote and it's got some very good ideas. I like when people think outside the box it helps to further the rod building craft. Thanks again Mark.

Ok, interesting ideas, but what about the remainder of your grips. In order to line up with the seat, the cork/EVA/whatever will not be concentric with the blank either. All I can say is that it'll look really weird. Just have concentric solidly linked with "fit and finish".

Ted;
Not really, one of the sponsors carries a handle/seat kit (I believe it was Custom tackle) that has a 15 degree offset built into the seat. I don't like that particular grip so I don’t use it, but on bait casting rods that I build for jerk baits I will often offset the handle behind the seat so that the butt of the handle does not slap the inside of the wrist when jerking the rod

Mark;
I was thinking about the shims you drilled and one thing to think about if you do that, is to make sure you drill them at the angle the blank will be traveling though the handle. If you drill them strait and force the blank at an angle there is a chance it could or would damage the blank.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2007 10:01AM by Steve Gardner.

It's an obvious point. Mounting on the taper on the top points the seat downwards. Obvious enough that I saw the seat ends were not square to the blank when I did my mock-up a month or so back with the poly glue. If I can see it, it is of large enough granularity that I care. Looking to me like it makes a 1-2 degree difference on my own blanks.
You don't care? Fine. But your abuse tinged diatribe comes off as defense of vested interest and the way you do stuff.
Personally I strive to be spot on in every thing I do, and I could care less whether it is my own thought or someone else's. I just don't understand anyone taking a stance that forces them to dismiss obvious points of geometry and design.

Dave; You are just to cute