Mo:
The reason for the comparison of what was stated? Is that I used the info the Mr. Emory Harry had provided in a previous post saying that a cork handle with reel seat was lighter then strait graphite tubing.
I did not say I agree with any of his weights Just that I used what he had provided.

I also have in my possession graphite tubing from several different manufactures. With some of what I have weighing about 1/2 of what some others make. The numbers that Mr. Harry gave are closer to the heavier of what I have. So I know that I can lower the weight of the graphite substantially depending on which brand I use.

Just a note: There are only two arbors needed for this set up.

Emory I have a question
When you are referring to having the rod parallel with the water, are you taking into account the different angels of the line?
Example;
When deep sea fishing on the bottom with the rod parallel to the water, the line is at approximately 50 degree angle to the rod. Were as if casting across a river with my rod tip held up high the line is say 50 yards out producing the same 50 degree angle. Would not the sensitivity be about the same?

I'm curious also, what type of rods do you build?




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2007 11:14PM by Steve Gardner.

Steve,

Ah....makes sense. You're continuing from another discussion.

What brand graphite tubing do you have that's the lightest?

Andy Dear's new material sounds promising although I'm waiting for the weight data.

Mo

Steve,
I guess I could be clearer about the line angle. Maybe I should have said if the line is straight relative to the rod so that the line is coming straight through the guides to the reel, in other words the line and the rod are parallel, then it is primarily the total mass of the rod and reel and the line that primarily affects sensitivity. The key is that when the line is like this the energy in the fish's bite is not transferred through the guides and rod to the fisherman's hand but travels directly through the line to the reel and the fisherman's hand.
The properties of the line that determine the lines transmission of vibrations or energy are the mass density, the elasticity and the tension on the line. Braided line has lower mass density than mono for a given strength and higher elasticity than mono so is much more sensitive than mono. But how efficiently any line will transmit vibrations is also a function of the tension on the line. The more tension on the line the better it transmits vibrations. The more slack a line is the poorer the transmission of the energy or vibrations.
I build a couple of hundred Salmon and Steelhead rods a year. The majority of which are sold to fishermen that fish on the Oregon Coast in the general area where I have a fishing cabin and spend a good deal of time. I quit building Bass and other types of rods a couple of years ago.

After reading the article many times, and slowly reading the beginnings of this thread, I thought I might have something constructive to offer only to find that Rich pretty much said what what was in my mind, including the rifle analogy.

Steve, your article was very intriguing, and I like the concept of what you do. I'm going to make a rod or two for myself with your techniques to try them out. The only problem is that I generally change my reels on a rod more often than I change underwear, same as most of my customers. A good rod doesn't change properties. It can't. Reels however are a differen't story. I like the option of changing a reel/spool/line in a matter of a minute. You have a customer base that doesn't need this option. However, I and my customers do. A near permanent marriage of reel to rod is something that is, frankly, a wet dream to most builders.

Mo;
The lighter graphite is not from a fishing source. Nor from a board sponsor, so out of respect for the advertisers on this site and Tom I will decline to answer that. I will say that are several companies that make graphite and in different weights that are made for other things then fishing, but adapt quite nicely to being used on rods.

Mick,
Wouldn't the same reel mounting rings that are used with a conventional cork Tennessee handle work with the graphite tubing?

Emory, I'm sure that they would. My only point was the "permanent" mounting of a reel using thread and finish, not something that I can change on the water or a basic customer can change before an upcoming weekend.

Mick;
You are absolutely correct.
A builder hast to understand the needs of their clients, and should educate the client to the advantages and limitations of any rod he builds for them.
When building a rod with a Tenn. Style handle there are limitations and advantages. With the biggest limitation being the reel attachment system.

If your clients need the choice of changing reels all the time them do not wrap them permanently. I would suggest you stay away from the plastic mounting rings also. Although I have not used them I have heard a lot of negative feed back as to their performance when being used with graphite. In your case I would suggest you teach your clients how to properly wrap the reel on with tape.

I have the advantage of rod building, not being my primary source of income. So I have the advantage of being as selective with my clients as they do of being selective about their builder. What you have read about in the article is how I build my spinning rods if a person wants something different I refer them to another builder that can better accommodate their specific needs.

JB. Custom Rods; does a lot of similar stuff as myself using graphite tubing in the construction of his rods, but offers them with real seats and other options. He builds a top quality rod with an "out of the box thinking and construction" attitude. That produces a superior product then most others, (around here any way). I cannot speak for other areas of the country. So that is were I send them. If fact we share some clients depending on what their needs are.

I also require my clients to provide or purchase a top of the self quality reel and steer them away from some brands. If they cannot afford to invest in a top of the line reel, then they cannot afford my rod anyway so I send them to see JB.
This is one of the reasons that as long as I have been building this setup I've only replaced two reels.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 08:43AM by Steve Gardner.

In addition to my other sillyness post - why not drill a ton of holes in the tubing, as that would further reduce the excessive weight, plus will prevent the neccesity of wrapping a hookkepper, you could just use one of the holes in the tubing to place the hook.

Billy;
I'm not so sure your other post was that silly. If I remember correctly Tom and I had this discussion some time back. It may have been another builder, but if memory serves me correctly it was Tom.

Thinking about it, if you left the section ware the reel mounts solid then drilled the holes down the remainder of the handle I don't see any reason it wouldn't work to lighten the rod.
The only downside is that it would lighten the butt section moving the balance point of the rod forward decreasing bite detection.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 09:31AM by Steve Gardner.

Steve, my other past was viewed as silly because of the rainwater analogy, I've made that same post a while back myself, using Saltwater spray and that the salt crystals remain after teh water evaporates. Some of the other things Isaid probably could be worked out in some way and incoporated into a rod, such as the holes in the reel (maybe in the base of the reel feet), and the hole in carbon fiber as a hookkeeper.

The reason the post was ignored is because it contained outside the box thinking, which is frowned upon by many in this craft. If you don't build hundreds of rods per year, and you havent' been building for 236 years, you don't have any credibility.

Billy,

Sometimes you show a great sense of logic! I didn't ignore your previous post and agree 100% with this one!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Graphite tubing does seem to vary by source. This morning I weighed an 8" section along with two brick foam arbors that I obtained from Lew Childre many years ago. It weights exactly 1.00 ounces (that'll never happen again).

I turned a cork TN grip to the same diameter and reamed it to fit a blank that probably represents what most bass fishermen would be building such rods on. The weight? .817 ounces.

I will assume both will have reels fitted with tape so I left that out of the equation.

So the cork TN is approximately 20% lighter than this particular piece of carbon tubing. However, unless and until I actually built the rod out I cannot say just what percentage weight difference it would make per the overall rod. And that is the difference that I would assume would be the factor in any reduction of sensitivity.


...............

Let me just clarify that in my origninal post, I was in no way criticizing Steve or his Vibronic rods. I think they are a great design. Do they have limitations? Yes - but Steve has taken these into account through client education and requiring a high standard of reel, etc. I liked the article, and I'm impressed by the possibilities here. I'm disappointed that there has not been more positive inquiry and feedback about his article - it's probably one of the most practical in terms of expaning our ability to give the client a real performance advantage without having to buy cermet guides! :-)

Bear this in mind - a tiny amount of additional weight in the butt area helps to better balance the rod for most applications. In addition, "extra" weight in this area is practically exponentially of less impact than additional weight added towards the tip of the rod.

Billy - your posts are a nice jolt of humor and common sense. They rock.

Billy,

That was excellent.

Someday WE may be "236 year men" .....only I hope, with OPEN minds. :-)

DR

Steve,

If I didn't mention it yet, it was an awesome article and like Rich said, it shows what can happen when we take ourselves out of the standard "box" that tradition tries to keep us in! I'm sure that someone could find a technical/scientific reason why every advancement throuhout history would not work!! Scientific/technical solutions don't always translate well when dealing in reality.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Rich,

Most of the folks on the rod building forums are not RodMaker subscribers. So there is not always a tremendous amount of feedback on the articles here on the forum.

...............

OK, OK, I give up. I guess that I should have known better than to have gotten into this discussion.

Steve, I really appreciate your post and appreciate the dialogue - in the more congenial sense.

Couple of quick notes:

1. .159 oz is relevant or not depending on the rod built. For saltwater, I can't see how it can be relevant. For a split handle 6' UL I recently completed at sub 1.1 oz, that's almost 15% more weight. With the spin reel the whole rig came to under 6 oz and I'm confident can handle over 10lb trout in the large reservoirs of So. Ca - it's a matter of drag setting. (By the way, I'm thinking that there's a point when a rig is too lightweight physically. It's difficult to FEEL the cast with 1/32 oz lures - and thus a bit more difficult to control the cast. With heavier top heavy outfits, i get feedback on where the tip is - with something so light, the feedback is less. But it's an effortless pleasure just holding this rig.)

The relevant issue is here - without any added weight, the center of gravity is exactly on the 1st finger - meaning beautifully balanced the way I prefer. Adding any weight to that situation would change the balance.

I do admit this may be more of an 'aesthetic' preference to some rather than real difference. After all, it's only .159 oz and we can easily lift 1000 times that with one arm.....:) (though not cast)

2. As to weight of handle improving balance, my line of thought is that if I want to add weight to balance the top part of the rod, I ONLY add weight to the very furthest tip of the butt. That way, the least amount of weight add the most balance - I never try to add weight to the entire handle assembly.

Again, most relevant for UL applications - and not heavy rods.

OK, early lunch break over - back to work.....:)

Mo







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2007 03:05PM by Mo Yang.

Mo - another option to balance the rod is to move the reel seat towards the tip, thus giving you a longer grip. If you play with this enough, you'd be surprised how little you may have to move teh reel seat to achieve perfect balance - often the additional length of the butt grip is not even noticed. I'm not recommending you to wrap the next rod with a 14" grip, but if it is not balanced and you know prior to gluing everythign up...see how much you have to move teh reel seat up to get it to balance.