Nowadays with the use of the internet, home PC's, & printers we
run across all kinds of stuff that people would like on rods.

Company, sports team, & college logos, cartoon & movie characters, and the
images of fish, flys, charter boats etc..

Is the reproduction of any copy written image be it a printer copy or weave pattern or simple tracing for any reason without expressed permission against the law?

I think I already know the answer but are there "grey areas"? Has anyone ever
had problems because of a weave pattern, home made decal, etc: that resembled say an NFL team logo or other copy written material?

How about getting permission? Anyone have success with that?

What is public domain?



Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2007 10:24PM by Raymond_Adams.

The laws are stricker than you may realize. If the material is copyrighted or owned by anyone, you'd best not use it.

I have a summary written for me by a copyright and "fair use" attorney that I'll try to dig out tomorrow and get you some information from.

.................

if i owned a sports team i sure wouldnt have a problem with you putting my team on your stuff good advertising...but then again im not them and they might think differently

There is some information here that may help.

[www.templetons.com]


The problem is that you are "making a dirivitive work"

Owen



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2007 10:37PM by Owen Dare.

Thanks Tom I would appreciate that very much.



Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Like Tom said, it's against the law and sports teams. schools, etc are very protective of the logo's etc. and make large sums of money from liscensing them. Basically, if someone copyrighted it, you need written permission to use/duplicate it by any means.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

From what I'm reading on the link posted above things are not as cut & dry
as it seems.


Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Ray,
basically, if it is a copyrighted image, you cannot use it without permission. Period. Whether or not the owner pushes the issue, you are taking your chances.

A couple years ago I was asked to do a gift rod for a Columbia U. alum with a weave of their logo. I asked CU for their permission to duplicate their logo and I was told that unless the alum themselves specifically asked for permission, who could be verified, for that specific purpose, they would not allow it. That rod wasn't built.

I could have taken my chances and done what what was asked. I didn't think it was worth the potential trouble.

You rolls the dice you take your chances. Copyright law isn't very forgiving. I personally can't afford a lawsuit. I know it sounds like small potatoes, but some folks take this very seriously, however ridiculous it may seem.

Raymond,

What are you reading that's not cut & dried?? I just read it and I thought that it was pretty emphatic that copyrighted materials can't be used without permission.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Ray; Back in 1991 I wrote and published an Employee Safety Manual for the Tennessee Valley Authority. The Safety Manual was on Scaffold Building. I found some photographs in some books I had that I wanted to use in my book. These books were copyrighted. I contacted these publishers for permission to use the photos. They wanted to know how they were going to be used and for what purpose,how many copies,if I was doing this for profit,etc. I think there were 2 publishers and 3 different books involved. One of the publishers charged me $120.00 for the use of 2 photos. The other didn't charge me anything since I wasn't making a profit from their use. But I did have to have written permission from them.
My guess would be , if you were going to use something like an NFL logo it would cost you an arm and a leg because they , as Mike said, make large sums of money from these logos. If it was something you found in a magazine or a book that you like, It might be worth you while to contact the publisher.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2007 12:03AM by Jay Hunt.

Oh I agree whole heartedley with you Mick and I would not advocate
anyone violate any civil or criminal laws. I was just curious what the
actual law was in regards to image reproduction.

I happen to think about this when I realized that the character bass
that Billy did in his eva grip and I created a weave pattern from and
wrapped was actually from a line of T-shirts sold on a website and
I don't know where else. It seems I at least violated civil law to some
degree without realizing it.


Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Mike,
The paragraph about "fair use" was a bit ambiguous. I don't know how legally correct that web blog
is but it does seem that damages have to be incurred before any wrong is done.

Does a teacher have to get permission to copy material for use in a lesson? Technically yes.
depending of course on how "fair use" might be applied.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

"The "fair use" exemption to (U.S.) copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author"

I don't think that reproducing something that was copyrighted would fall into this category. Actually, copyrighted materials cannot be copied and used in classes by teachers. They could read an article to their class, but it would be illegal to copy and distribute it to the students without written permission. I have experienced this when I copied a newspaper article and distributed to attendees at a workshop I was conducting. The author found out and a lawyer told me to "Cease and Desist"

I'm not saying that they all will do so, but if they want to, they can.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I guess your right Mike,
After posting the question and reading that web blog (again)it would appear that any work
weather it be text or images is owned by it's creator (weather it is actually copyrighted or not)
and any use of said material is protected by civil law.

It's obvious to most that company and sports logos are off limits. However, most people,
myself included don't think they were doing anything wrong by tracing a picture onto graph
paper and creating a weave pattern or handle inlay. I'll probably NEVER be sued for using
someone elses fish drawing or photo but it does give pause to consider.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Raymond:

The caveat is that as soon as you copy a Professional Sports logo onto a fishing rod you are going to sell or even give away, "damages" have been incurred. You have either "degraded" their image, robbed them of their licensing fee, (I don't know what the average is, but I bet it's more than you want to pay) or both. Either way, that's more trouble than you want. Thinking that if they do find out, they won't go after you because it isn't worth their time and trouble is dangerous. Taking you for every nickel you will ever have sends a clear signal to others: "Don't even think about it." I remember reading something last year about a mother who was sued for a ton of money because her underage Son downloaded hundreds of copyrighted songs for which he didn't pay the Artist's Fee. (She lost, but they settled.)

And Mike is right; schools and Universities are not exempt from the copyright laws. They are notorious thieves of copyrighted material. It's just sort of an unwritten rule that since they are "not for profit" and use the materials for educational purposes, nobody takes them to court. Most don't want to incur the negative publicity of interfering with education... But as Mike noted, there are exceptions.

RON.

Ron, I guess we were typing at the same time!
See above

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

OK fine. How far does it go then?

“United States currency and coinage are governed by federal law through the U.S. Treasury Department. Generally, it is illegal to fraudulently deface, mutilate, impair, diminish, falsify, scales or lightens any coins minted or "coined" in the United States or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in use or circulation as money within the U.S. (18 U.S.C. 331)”

I suppose one must define “fraudulently” at that point. I read it stated that “It is fraud if you are attempting to gain monetary benefit from defacing money”

So I guess using a coin in your rod butt as an added little touch could be considered illegal as well. I have no doubt that some legal eagle could likely find it possible to prove that the use of the coin added an increased value to your rod to some nth degree.

Bah. I am building a personal rod with my favorite teams colors and logo. Let ‘em come after me. Heck – I think I’ll even put a dime in the butt or something just to increase the danger factor……….

Raymond,
OOPS... I'M not the fastest typist in town.... You've got it right though. The commercial enterprises are the ones that will come after you. And yes, you don't actually need to have an official copyright in hand before you sell your work. The statement "copyright applied for" and a date are usually sufficient to establish ownership of an original creative work.

Regards, Ron.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2007 03:17AM by RON NIX.

Mike,

Build your rod the way you want to... chances are you would never be caught. The point is: You should be aware of the fact that if they want to make an issue of it they can... in either case; the coin (criminal), or the logo (civil).

RON.

intellectual property rights is a huge issue, made bigger with the effect of the internet and the ease of people gathering intellectual property in the form of photos or images, logos, etc. if you're really willing to know, you should turn to experts on this, not an internet forum (though there may be experts in our midst too) and there are intellectual rights attorneys to help explain this as well as the government's copyright web site. it is very clearly spelled out though there will always be those who will argue cases, leaving attorneys with job security. yes, copyright is established with the creation of something unique and its ability to be enforced is strengthened by the creator's registering of the product with the copyright office (US) but it's not necessary, whether it is the actual creator/artist or the corporation/company they produced the work for in the first place.

finding violations and enforcing copyright laws is another issue altogether. reproduction of entire articles on the internet from magazines or newspapers is a personal irritant of mine since i am a professional photographer and work for a newspaper and run into my/our stuff used without permisison often. professionals are generally way beyond thinking it's just flattering... you'll probably never run into someone who wants to enforce the law if you use the colors or a grabbed logo for a single personal rod but ron's right, ignorance is never an excuse so you should just be aware of the laws. entities like the NFL, and even universities can be very strict about usage. and the issue of public domain is clearly spelled out if i recall correctly.

eric
fresno, ca.