Hi Tom: I was reading post's about Flex Coat yellowing. I e-mailed them and found out that they have a new formula that is being tested in California-Hawaii and Florida. I buy mine from Mud Hole in Florida, so maybe I am getting this new stuff. It has a little UV symbol on the package? Dries clear, so I don't know. Something to check out. It works for me. I tried two other brands, but I still went back to Flex. Keep up the good work

I have tried it and was not able to find any difference between it and the previous formula other than it having a slightly shorter pot life.

The thing to remember as far as finishes yellowing, is that most of them will slightly yellow or amber to at least some extent (LS Supreme stays almost perfectly clear and Glass Coat, thus far, seems to remain mostly clear). But, unless you are wrapping with very light colored threads on light colored blanks, you are not likely to really notice it to any great extent.

I have finished thousands of rods with Flex Coat and have always been satisfied, except on white blanks or with white or yellow wraps. In those instances, the yellowing, or even browning of the finish was readily apparent. On the others, dark blanks with medium to dark threads, you'd never know the finish wasn't absolutely water clear.

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Glass Coat may be the new finish. I am just afread of the pot life. If it is thick enough I can thinn with Mid-temp or a Slow thinner. Works in Flex Coat. I guess Time will tell on the Glass Coat? Thanks

The pot life of the Glass Coat is easily as long as that of the new version of Flex Coat. If you work more slowly, just finish your rod in sections. Mix one batch for the butt area, and one after that for the tip section.

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Heck, I take my time with Flex Coat - Got too try this stuff! You work too hard - go get some fishing in! Long weekend

I had to be here anyway today - the new RodMaker issue which is due to you guys by October 28th has to be finished up on my end by Monday.

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I inlaid a Fly in a butt cap and LS turned Yellow rather Quick.. I have LS that has dried in my foil cups and it has not been exposed to the outdoors and it has turned Yellow.. I sure would like to find a finish that stays clear... Thanks Dave's Rods

FWIW, since changing over to a metal stir-stick, I have noticed a DRAMATIC difference in my epoxy not yellowing anymore.

From what I understand, wooden popsicle sticks are usually pine, and therefore have pine sap in them. This sap is what makes the epoxy turn quickly.

Can't prove it is true, but I know that the metal has really worked well for me.

-TH

I only use popsicle sticks. I have no proplems so far? Good idea, just too wash them with a little alcohol. Don't think it could hurt.

Actually, it is the type of components in the particular hardener which usually react with UV and turn amber, yellow or even darker brown.

I won't discount the sap in the popsicle stick theory, as I really don't know that much about popsicle sticks, but the discoloration problem seems more likely to be with the particular hardener used.

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Tom,

I cannot state it as fact, but it is a popular theory among fly tyers who make epoxyhead flies. I can say for sure that my epoxy has been clear ever since I took wood out of the picture.

For what it is worth, many report that by putting a thin coat of fingernail polish on their epoxy, no yellowing occurs for very long periods of time. The theory is that the epoxy benefits from not being exposed to oxygen or H2O while it finishes curing (which supposedly takes weeks before chemically complete)

Just a bit of secondhand heresay which may or may not be correct...

-TH

I dont use popsicle sticks to stir my finish so I know thats not the problem.. Thanks Dave's Custom Rods

Some misconceptions are in need of clarifying.
Whether wood, metal, graphite, or puppy dog tails are used for mixing the epoxy non of them will have the slightest effect on the yellowing or non yellowing or any other properties of the cured epoxy. The fact that epoxy supposedly yellowed when mixed with a wooden mixer but didn't yellow when mixed with a metal one is certainly not scientific evidence that wooden mixures cause yellowing. The ONLY cause of epoxy yellowing is in the type of hardener being utilized in its curing.

There are literally thousands of samples test and otherwise, of LS Supreme all over the South Pacific, and thousands more all over the Australia New Guinea area on hundreds and hundreds of rods exposed to merciless sun and salt air. I have many reports from many sources that LS Supreme simply does not turn yellow in the most severe of conditions. Yet Dave Henney claims it has turned yeldlow in his foil cups----I wonder what he uses to mix it with?

Fingernail polish is merely Nitrocellulose lacquer. There is nothing about this simple coating which benefits epoxy in any way. Epoxy does not benefit from not being exposed to oxygen or water (H2o) while it is curing. It is an entirely self contained curing mechanism, and it does not take weeks before becoming chemically complete. Room temperature curing systems such as we use in rod building are about 98% completely cured in about 24 hours with the other 2% occuring in the next 5 to 7 days.

Don't wipe your wooden stir sticks with alcohol. The first time you use a new wooden spatula it will become impregnated with your mixed epoxy. Wipe it with a clean paper towel. When the epoxy has cured the wood is sealed, now simply wipe it off after each usage and it will stay nice and sealed.

I shape and sell a specially designed spatula for the purpose of mixing and applying epoxies to fishing rods. I have spent several years arriving at the optimum design shape for this purpose. If anyone thinks that metal stir sticks prevent yellowing while wooden sticks promote yellowing, it can only be because they will have a better more completely mixed batch of resin with the metal spatula. Not because there is anything inherant in the wood that causes yellowing. For those interested, there will be an article in the next issue of Rodmaker on these spatula's.
Ralph

To Raystown rod & reel co.
Whoever is telling you this nonsense should be shot. There is no catalytic reaction in epoxies. Epoxies are 100% Polymeric, and if there was a catalytic reaction it most certainly would not break down the metal foil cups and stirrers--thats exactly why we who have something of a technical knowledge of these proceedings always recommend stainless steel as the first choice for both mixing bowls and spatulas (stirrers) When they spread false misleading information such as this it certainly does a disservice to the rod building world in general, and to newbies who might such take such erroneous information seriously it does great harm.

You also might keep in mind that those small plastic cups available in party supply stores, usually are wax lined. The wax liner in these cups has been traced many a time to mysterious fish eyes and other signs of "where did it come from" contamination, and has resulted in many a witch hunt.
Ralph.

I have to disagree with you, Ralph, when you say that the ONLY cause of yellowing is the type of hardner used.

In my case, I was using the EXACT same containers of epoxy. I was mixing on cardboard, and using a wooden stick. ALL of my epoxy turned yellow very quickly. (within a couple of days)

On advice, I started mixing on plastic, with a stainless blade, and my yellowing problems went away INSTANTLY. The exact same container of epoxy, and only a week later, at the most.

Since it was the exact same epoxy, it HAD to be some type of contamination that caused the yellowing, right?

Perhaps it was not the wood, but the cardboard? Cardboard is put together with glue, right? Could that be the cause? Either way, SOMETHING caused that epoxy to yellow, besided the hardner.

-TH

OH, almost forgot...

If you mix on a dark piece of Luan, which is a thin plywood made from Indonesian mahogony, or some other dark wood, your epoxy will turn yellow before you finish mixing! You can see it happening!

I had some scrap luan around, so I cut it into convenient little squares, thinking they would make nice mixing surfaces... BAD IDEA!

So far, I like either glass or the bottom of a soda can for mixing.

:-)

TH

Tony
You are confusing the process of yellowing with staining. What you are witnessing is merely staining -- it has nothing to do with ultra-violet degredation. When we talk about epoxies yellowing we are referring to the process that occurs when the resin is exposed to ultra-vilolet light and an internal discoloration takes place over a period of time--sometimes in mere days, but usually it takes several weeks or months for the degradation to occur. Unless of course you have some sort of magic wand and can make it occur in your mixing cup.
Ralph

If you want to see whether or not your epoxy suffers from UV color degredation, try this simple test.

1. Make a few test wraps with white NCP thread on a scrap piece of rod blank. If you have a white rod blank, that is even better. Coat the wraps with your finish. (You can try different combinations if you wish; A. wrap with no CP and finish only, B. wrap with CP and finish, C. wrap with CP only. This can give you more insight on the effect when coupled with different systems. Remember to mark/number them so you will know later what you are looking at.)

2. After the finish has cured, put a strip of masking tape down one side of the test stick. It should run parallel to the test stick and cover one side of your wraps. Two layers of tape are suggested.

3. Put the test stick outside where it will receive sunlight exposure during the entire daylight period.

4. Wait at least a week, two is better, and then bring the test stick inside and view it under a good light. Remove the tape and compare the wraps that have been exposed to UV and the area covered by the tape which did not receive direct UV. The white NCP thread will allow you to readily see if there has been any change in the color or clarity of your finish.

I should also mention that one test stick is not going to tell you every possible thing about your finish's reaction to UV light. (A truely valid test of this sort will encompass many more than a single testing sample, but this will at least give you some idea of how your finish will react in the real world without investing in too many samples or much expense.)

UV degredation also amounts to more than simple yellowing or discoloration. It also breaks down the epoxy structure. Ralph can surely bring more insight into this facet of degredation than I can. but in our rod building world, yellowing or discoloration seem to be the primary concerns.

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Ralph,

Not sure about that magic wand statement, but unless you have a good reason for questioning another man's truthfullness, it is never a good idea.

From what you write, one rule seems clear to me:

1) "AVOID CONTACT WITH SURFACES THAT CAN STAIN YOUR EPOXY."

I know for sure that dark woods are prime candidates, and light woods are also questionable, until they are sealed.

-TH

I am sure staining can and does occur. I once used a painted stick (purple - it was from an old brush) and found that my epoxy quickly gained a purplish tint. That was enough of a lesson for me.

The article that Ralph has penned for the upcoming issue of RodMaker has the simplest solution to the problem of staining, as well as making sure you can scrape the sides of your mixing container quite well - make and use a specially shape finishing spatula. It's not hard and once you have one it should last you a lifetime. With it you can mix and apply your epoxy rod finish with a single tool and clean up with an alcohol wipe. Makes a lot of sense.

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