During the years when I started following this forum, rods were built with consideration to the spine, this changed to the straightest axis, and eventually it really didn't matter. Before I started rod building I played with building my own golf clubs. Lately in the golf circles, attention has been given to orienting the spine a certain way in golf clubs. If a golf shaft exibited a single spine, it was oriented in the clubhead at 9 o'clock for accuracy, 3 o'clock for distance (that sounds familiar in rodbuilding). If a shaft had two spines 180 degrees apart, then they were oriented at 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock (stabilizes toe droop during the swing).

I just picked up a titanium driver head and a premium Grafalloy shaft on the internet. This shaft has two spines exactly 180 degtrees apart so I set them at 6 and 12. I used this driver Wednesday for the first time and it was the most stable and solid hitting driver I've ever hit in my life - golf is alot more fun when played from the fairway.

I think I'll keep building my rods with attention to the spine. Like Yogi Berra use to say, "the game is 80% mental, the rest is in your head"!

Because you had a good day golfing you are going to change the way you build rods?? Maybe it was so stable and solid because of it being "a titanium driver head and a premium Grafalloy shaft".

Sounds like a better arguement for using premium components rather than where your spine is oriented.

Some of the authors of the books on rod building from 25 years ago thought the spine was VERY important part of rod building.

Even tho we have "new break-thru technology" in todays circles,, I tend to use all the tools available to me to get the best rod I can , if it take into consideration the spine, the straightness, the overall feel of the rod, so be it..

I think the use of the spine was good enough for Dale Clemens,, it is good enough for me.

I know that there is always a "better mouse trap" but I will still use the one that works for me.

I believe you can take premium components and assemble them poorly and and take inexpensive components and assemble them to the optimum. I have A $500 Callaway with a Fujikura Speeder shaft that I can't hit anywhere near as well as the same demo club I tried. My brother has a $30 driver he bought from Dunham's and consistently crushes it down the middle of the fairway.

I believe you can take a $200 top of the line Gloomis blank and build it poorly and have a properly built $40 Batson RX6 that fishes better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2007 10:10AM by Tim Collins.

Tim,
Here is a web site that I think you will be interested in looking at, [csfa.com]. It is the web site of Kaufman Enterprises and is owned by John Kaufman. Kaufman Enterprises builds and sells several devices for measuring the characteristics, mainly the resonant frequency and torque, of golf club shafts. I know John and he is a really nice guy, an engineer and very knowledgeable and also an excellent golfer. Plus he has done a great deal of testing of golf club shafts and knows a great deal about them.
If you go to this site then go to the application notes you will find a great deal of very interesting information about golf club shafts in general and also about their spine.
Golf club shafts are built a little differently then rod blanks particularly when it comes to the alignment of the load bearing, graphite, fibers. I think that this because the torsional load is higher on golf club shafts, the head of the golf club is more off center than the load on a rod blank, plus they are a little less concerned with the weight.
Some of the newer shafts are being built with a technique called filament winding that results in the shafts having a virtually undetectable spine.

Emory - actually filament wound golf club shafts have been around for some time - I built clubs on them 5-6 years ago when I was still building golf clubs.

Really, the main consideration in orientation of spine, or more importantly, matching resonant frequencies, of golf clubs is to provide consistency from one club to another throughout the set. This is the goal of a good clubmaker. And yes, the swing you bring to the course that day is MUCH more important than having a D1 vs a D3 swingweight, or a frequency tuned shaft (tuned to what??? - it should match your other clubs to provide any benefit)

Golf clubs...Fishing rods...... Apples...Oranges..... Only thing in common is the shaft material

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Rich,
I agree completely with you. I think that the key point though is that a perfect golf club shaft, just like a perfect rod blank, would have no detectable spine.

Fred,
The model A Ford was good enough for Henry Ford but it not good enough for me. Sorry I could not resist being a smart a-- in response to your Dale Clemens comment.

Mike,
I think that I would argue that it is more a question of oranges and lemons and that they have a great deal in common. If I was being a smart a-- again I might even argue that the lemons are the ones with strong spines.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2007 11:06AM by Emory Harry.

Emory,
I know absolutely ZIP about engineering, materials (or golf). etc. but in my mind. a golf club basically goes through one motion all it's life, basically a vertical swing with a large amout of force with a piece of wood/metal at a 90 degree angle on the end of it that strikes a ball, whereas a fishing rod (I don't think) ever gets that type/amount of sudden force on it (which would probably cause it to immediatly break, making the whole point moot)since the force of fighting a fish is applied at the end of a long line some distance away from the rod tip and much of that is compensated by the reel drag and length of the rod that it's distributed along. On a golf club, the spine would always have the same orientation to the ball but on a fishing rod, the spine would have a different orientation when casting, retreiving and would vary with the position that you hold your hand when fishing and the direction that the fish is moving. While I don't doubt that spine may play a part in golf club construction, I have yet to see any actual evidence that it has a bearing on graphite rod construction one way or the other other than "so and So" said to do it that way. Heck, we can't even agree on whether it's spine or spline!!

My opinion would be, if it makes you feel better and you have confidence in it, by all means do it, if not, don't!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

The torsional aspect as described in Mr. Kaufman's literature is certainly applicable to fishing rods. Its application provides information that gives cause for cyclic torsional loading in potentially weak areas of fishing rod blanks. The planes described assist in shaft orientation to minimize cyclic torsional stress, to the point of failure due to fiber compression, in highly loaded composite shafts. Thanks Emory for providing that link to me about two months ago. I was able to use the information is setting up the CTS bluewater 16/18 wt. I will continue to drink lemonade and eat Florida oranges to increase my seratonin levels so I can understand what is available to read.

Gon Fishn

Mike - actually the golf shaft moves in several directions - it lags behind when the head enters the impact zone, plus as Emory pointed out the head causes the shaft to bow downward as it reaches maximum velocity at the bottom of the swing (the center of the clubhead tries to align with the shaft's centerline, and then the shaft "kicks" the head forward.

Emory - I download this website which is similar; ww.clubmaker-online.com/spines.html

Tim, True but doesn't the spine still always stay aligned and facing the same direction? Front, back or side, etc? I said that I didn't know anything about golf LOL!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Also no one has ever disputed that a spine exists on both a fishing rod and golf club. The difference between the two the only rotational force during the downsing of a golf club would be the spine. Where as on a fishing rod the downward force of a fishing line running through guides would be the major contributing factor of torque, so much in fact that the rotational effect of the spine is nearly non-existant.

GLoomis has information about the importance of blank orientation on blue water fly rods. Would you find it strange that a blank can fail during the casting motion alone? For heavy use guide boat fishing under blue water condtions cyclic torsional bending and relaxing has been attributed to a cause of premature blank failure. Mechanical failure of structures can be quite perplexing. Failure of stainless steel components in automotive drive trains can be induced by "fretting" type corrosion. That corrosion mechanism can be caused by simple harmonic vibration, of parts, during transport of new vehicles on railroad flat cars due to the flatcar wheels clicking as they cross track joints. To put this type of information in the box of "Not Needed By Anyone" may be cause for some rod builders to overlook important issues.

Hitting a golf ball with a head that is off-centered on a shaft, and loading a fishing rod by means of a line running through line guides are not even remotely similar.

I didn't read all these posts, too busy, but did see Scott's just above. He hit things pretty well.

............

Heck, I just want to cure the slice on my Senko. Plus, I keep shanking my Rapalas and Yo-Zuris.. .

Wait a minute. Now I'm REALLY confused :-)

More and more golf pros are having the spine, oscillation frequency, whatever, etc., of their shafts realigned in their clubs to enhance their "feel" and shot making ability. If a weekend hacker like me can tell the difference, then it makes sense for a pro golfer to since he relies on shot consistancy to earn a living.

And what do the pro fisherman use in these Bass tournaments - a custom built rod or do they just pick something up at Walmart? If they have custom built rods, I wonder how many of them insist exactly "where" they want the spine (if there is such a thing) on their rods?

I too have built golf clubs using graphite shafts. Several years ago I purchased a very expensive shaft and had it "pured". When the shaft arrived it had alignment marks to assist in location of the head. Being curious I put the shaft in my spline finder and low and behold the marks the factory had indicated where identical to my findings with my spline finder said the spline was. So much for paying somebody 15 bucks to spline a golf shaft when I can do the same thing.

Tim,
You are right about the pros and the graphite shafts that they are using. The touring pros have been fighting the inconsistancy of graphite shafts from the time that they came out. They get more club head velocity with them and as a result more distance with graphite but they also are more inconsistant with them. If you have noticed virtually none of them use graphite shafts in their irons where they need accuracy. In their irons they use steel shafts.

Loading of a golf shaft during a golf swing is almost an identical movement (of the shaft deflection moment) as a well casted fishing rod. Spine-ing will make a small difference. Hardly noticeable because there are so many other variables that could and do come into play. Since I build mostly trolling rods, heavy E-glass blanks and roller guides, and most all of the large fish are always caught with either a fighting harness or a gimbaled chair, which almost completely negates the spine-ing necessity. Especially with the drag technology availabkle today. Spine-ing is not nearly as important on short rods as it is on long rods...say 10 footers for bait casting or spin casting for long distance, such as surf casting over the breakers.

As far as golf goes, graphite is NOT very consistent as compared to a steel shaft. Stainless shafts available now have almost a invisible spine, so they are effectively "pured" from the factory now. If the spine is not aligned properly during manufacture, there are only a handful of golfers on the planet that would ever be able to tell it. My clubs I have reshafted 4-5 times now and tried to align spines as best as I could with a buddy of mines pro shop frequency resonator and the damned things will STILL hit a shot off center every now and then !! Hahahaaaa !! .......It couldn't be me ?......Could it ? ....Nawww....its got to be faulty equipment !......just like that last cast I made INTO the kelp paddy !!!