I'm having some problems with mixing/applying Threadmaster and I'm hoping that somebody has experienced/solved this problem.
I accurately measure out the two parts and put them in a small plastic disposable mixing cup. I stir the glue with a small bamboo stick that is essentially solid because I leave the previous thin layers of epoxy on it. Using smallish circles, I stir around the perimeter (imagine an old spirograph type pattern) 50 times. Then I go the other direction 50 times. About every 10th time I make sure that I get the epoxy off the sides. I repeat this twice for a total of 200 "stirs". I then pour the epoxy into an aluminum foil lined bowl which is on a slight incline. I pour the epoxy (not scraping the sides of the cup) onto a part of the foil that is on the angle with the thought that the glue will thin to a film so that the bubbles will necessarily be closer to the surface. This is the process I have used successfully in the past for other epoxies.
Now I'll describe the problem and what things I have tried in an effort to overcome it, all with no success. The problem is that I always seem to end up with a solid film of very small (about 0.003") bubbles that I can't seem to get rid of. These are the things that I have tried while the epoxy is in the bowl. I've used a straw and my breath to blow on the surface. This does break the bigger bubbles but if I'm not careful, I seem to end up clouding the epoxy with moisture. I've used a heat gun (a low air volume hair dryer used in applying heat shrink wraps in electronics) but making the glue thin out so that the small bubbles rise to the top is tricky because it's a thin line between thin and accelerated setup. I can only find the right side of that line periodically. I've put the bowl on top of a pot of hot water in an effort to create an even, moderate heat but that didn't work either.
I've managed to get a few wraps to work properly by putting the glue on and VERY carefully using the heat gun. If I apply a bit too much heat, the epoxy thins so much that basically I get a drop that sinks to the bottom as the rod turns. I'm then forced to pull it off the drop with my spatula (for fear of getting a football shape) but this has the beneficial (in my view) effect of creating very thin guide wraps. However, the sensitivity of the glue to the heat means that the wraps might be inconsistently shaped (due to thinning) or might be wrecked (due to premature inconsistent setup caused by excessive heat).
I very much like the clarity and flow of the epoxy ( although the 20 minute pot life before the viscosity makes it unworkable is a little disappointing) so I'd rather find a solution to the problem then give up. So ... before I give up on the Threadmaster, has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, how did you overcome it?
Thanks
Steve

Steve,
More than likely your problem is the temp of the room and the temp of the unmixed resin and hardener. Most people who expierence problems with bubbles this time of year are trying to use their epoxy in a room that is much too cold. The room HAS to be at least 68-70 degrees to achieve optimum results. This is not just with TM but with any resin system. Try heating the bottles in a microwave for about 6 seconds before you mix the 2 parts together. Truth be known though I have applied TM in a room that was 61 degrees w/o bubble issues. I spoke with a fellow last night in Michigan who applies it in a 58 degree room w/no problem, so you may want to reevaluate your mix technique as well.
regarding your comments about potlife, a 20 minute potlife is more than sufficient to coat a 10 foot flyrod in one mix. I know some people like a longer potlife, but the fact is that a longer potlife opens the builder up to a whole different margin for error. Realisticaly it should only take around 30 seconds to get the mixed resin on the wrap....multiply that by 10 guides and were talkin about 5 minutes. That gives you an extra 15-20 minutes to come back and attend to any details that need to be fixed....way more than enough time.
One of the biggest problems with a long potlife is that it tempts the builder to continue to mess around with the guide wraps once the resin has been applied. I can't emphasize enought that you need to put the mixed resin on the wrap, walk away and leave it alone....don't mess with it, it knows what to do all on it's own.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing

Steven,

This time of the year, while I'm getting the rod prepared, I sit both botles of TM on top of my room heat pump/AC vent that is in the floor. As the heat pump runs (they only blow warm air) the bottles are warmed perfectly. I only do this on super cold nights as my TM sits nearby a cold window.

Mixing....I use the SAME method as you, only I use a FLAT popsicle stick (if you're using something round, throw it in the trash), new one everytime, stir 60 one way, 60 the oppsite, 30 back the 1st direction scraping the sides only 2-3 times each direction. Now I pour the TM out on FLAT aluminum foil, grab a brush and do all my wraps WITH bubbles and all.

After I finish the wraps, I take a cig lighter as the rod turns and hold the flame BESIDE each wrap as the rod is turning getting close enough to watch every bubble POP and disappear completely.

After that I walk away and just come back and look in on the rod 2-3 times in the next 30min.

Perfect everytime.

Try it.

I just did a CTS yesteday and the temp here was 22 outside and my home heat pump is set on 70, so I guess my rod room was about 67? since it is in the back of the home and I have no curtains or anything on the windows.

DR

.


NERB that types with a bar of Ivory soap in his mouth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2007 07:05PM by Michael Joyce.

Mike,
It's difficult to say what is causing it, because honestly I have had this chemistry in my shop for over 2 years, and NEVER had a glitch, and I have tried and tried to make something go wrong with it, and I can't! I have purposely mixed ratios of resin & hardener that were WAY off, I have mixed it at 50 degrees, at 90 degrees I've only mixed it for 30 seconds etc....and cannot get it to do anything but cure completely perfect everytime. We have this chemistry being used in several small to mid size production shops doing 300-1000 rods per year w/o a glitch. The problem is when you get several thousand builders using it, and a few have issues with it, where are those few going wrong? Chemical compounds are effected by so many different environmental factors, then you throw in the mix user induced problems like improper mixing, measuring, application, adding solvent etc....it can almost make the problem impossible to diagnose.

I can tell you that low temperatures make finishes thicker and more prone to holding bubbles. I can also tell you that a 2 degree drop or hike in temp can make all the difference in the world in terms of performance. The funny thing is that come springtime, I don't get hardly any calls regarding bubbles.....

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing

.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2007 07:08PM by Michael Joyce.

As I mentioned in my original posting, I very much like Threadmaster, I simply need a solution to this problem. Just so you don't think I'm crazy, check out the picture I posted in the Misc section of the photos board (sorry but I'm not sure how to create the hyperlink or how to directly imbed the picture). The picture shows the leftover piece from the foil lined bowl. You can see the bubbles in both the original and magnified portions. Because the bowl was on an incline, the glue at the top thins to nothing and the bottom is about 1/8" thick. The room temperature was very close to 70 degrees (although the thermostat is about 15' and 7 steps up away) and given that this was a bowl, I can't see how the idea of trapped air would contribute. I would have to guess that it's my mixing method since the disposable cup also has similar bubbles.
Thanks for any hints.
Steve

Steven,
To imbed a link, just open the pic that you want on the Photo Page and copy the URL (adress in the browser address bar) and paste it into your post, That's it! Tom has posted that he prefers people to NOT imbed pix in the posts, just links

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Steve,
Check you're email.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing

I had that same thing happen once when I first started using TM. I just assumed that it was operator error, changed a few obvious things, and I'm getting great results now.

Based on your descriptions, seems like you're doing all the "right" things, so I'd just make minor adjustments, starting with the following:
1. Turn the heat up in the room.
2. Heat the resin for 5-10 seconds in the microwave before mixing.
2. Mix more slowly and longer (i.e. 90 circles in both directions)
3. Use something different to mix with (can't imagine that's the problem, but who knows...). I use the little PVC sticks, but maybe DR's idea of a popsicle stick is worth trying.
4. Pour the mixed TM onto a totally flat surface. Might even pour it out over a large area, so that you know it's thin (and would, therefore, release more bubbles).

Finally, you might consider just going to two thin(ner) coats of epoxy. No matter how hard I try, I just can't do a great job of epoxy with one coat. I can do a good job, but not a great job. If I try to do it in one coat, I get bubbles that get caught in the thicker mix (partly because I never use CP). Two coats allows those smaller bubbles to pop on their own (without flaming).

Even though it's frustrating, you'll figure it out soon. And, the TM is really worth the effort. As has been mentioned, it's the most "hands off" finish around. Slap it on, turn it a few times, then walk away.

Please forgive me if I'm being a little thick-headed (not an uncommon thing for me sometimes). The process you're describing sounds as if we're discussing finish epoxy and you've mentioned epoxy but there are several references in your post to glue. We are discussing finish epoxy over thread wraps, correct? I only ask because someone posted not long ago that was having problems and it turned out that he got the two of them crossed up.

Steve,

In your picture, the TM almost looks white-ish instead of clear.

My guess is finish was too cold and mixed too fast.

I had some samples of TH LIte that I ABUSED to see what it would do. I did a batch that looked like yours and I mixed it FAST, whipped it up like cake iceing and mine looked exactly like your photo. I still used the batch on a test rod, and it looked like crap until I hit it with a flame and warmed it....then it looked as sweet as any other finish. But what was left on the foil, looked like yours-crappy!

Warm it, mix SLOWLY in cold weather.

DR

something that might help you out with the bubbles....i use duragloss LS supreme and i mix it slowly and it only makes a few bubbles and what bubbles i see i "bump" with the side of the spatula and it pops the bubble and i just do that to all of them that i see and end up with a bubblesless mix

on applying im getting a couple bubbles that i guess is from the air under the thread and am not sure how to get rid of those other than to put the finish on extremely light

Check the www.rodmaker.lnfo web page or the library for mixing and applying epoxy. Good information on both of these.
Longer pot life is an advantage since it will allow more time with a more consistant viscosity.
If in your opinion the epoxy is getting to thick to work with mix a fresh batch.
It is cheap compared to all the time and expense up to the point of applying the finish.
Also consider using multiple thin coats of epoxy. First coat with LS Supreme then use high build or a first coat of U40 Perma Gloss. Then epoxy or multiple coats of Perma Gloss.


His Rod Shop
Joe Kassuba

Steven; From looking at your photo,,,milky and millions of tiny bubbles = temp too cold. Any 2 part epoxy will look that way if it is mixed too cold. I have done it with different brands, just playing around with it. As a matter of fact, Devcon is the most tempermental ( sensitive to temperature differential )brand I have seen. Used to use a lot of epoxy in making belt buckles. Just my opinion of course.

Looking at your photo is teh same as my epoxy always looks after I mix it. Fortunately, I use a Propane Torch to make it look clear. THAt's all you need to fix your problem. I've gone to pouring it out on a flat surface then flaming there, applying teh epoxy, then lightly flaming as the rod spins.

I'd bet $5 that if you used a epoxy turning machine thinginamajig, that you wouldn't have this problem. Not that I'm recommending that as I don't have one myself, I find it much easier to Propane Torch it.

If you're getting that many bubbles from your mixing/stirring, you're stirring much too fast. You don't want to whip it to a froth, just fold and blend it for about 3 to 4 minutes.

I'd suggest getting rid of your small round stick and moving to a wider spatula or popsicle stick. Stirring should be done slowly.

Only problem with torching it, or heating to that degree is that you change the properties of the epoxy. Most epoxy that winds up cracking badly is that which has been "torched."

...................

Over here, at the tropics. I have never known an easier or friendlier epoxy than ThreadMaster. If you mix 2 equal parts, you can manhandle it, apply anyway you like, and 10 out of 10 times, you will get perfect finish with no bubbles. No blowing, torching or any heating. In my opinion, in an "A" class custom rod, the simplest part of building such a rod is the epoxy work. With today's technology of producing consistent epoxy, most should consistently give you good quality. Fear them, then you are prone to mistakes because you simply don't understand how epoxy behaves. I am sorry I sound crude, but this is my experience.