I'm currentlly looking to build a 9' 4 piece 5 wt fly rod, and I am thinking about using larger size guides. What are your opinions, pros, cons,and experiences with using larger guides on a fly rod. I guess a standard set would be:

stipper #10,
3- #3,
3- #2,
3- #1,
what would be your suggestions for this rod? Was thinking about using

stipper #12, & 10
2- #4
3- #3
3- #2
large tip top

Thanks for your input.
Paul Kalbrener

I think it depends on the line you'll be using. Shooting heads work better with "one size up" guides so the connection points clear better, same goes if you’re using long nymping tippets,(I’ve used them as long as 16 feet in some lakes). Personally I always use a large tip top no matter because there's always a knot or connection point there. Single foot guides will help keep the weight down if that’s a issue for you as I'm guessing it will be a pack rod.
Good fishing
Keith

Larger sizes than what? Larger is not better if the guides are larger than they need to be. Extra weight is the bitter enemy of a fly rod.

One thing you certainly want to do, is kick out all those intermediate sizes. For instance, instead of:

stripper #10,
3- #3,
3- #2,
3- #1,

Go...

stripper #10
9- #1

or instead of:

stipper #12, & 10
2- #4
3- #3
3- #2
large tip top

Go...

stripper #12, & 10
9- #2


The sizes inbetween the largest and smallest guides only add extra weight. They do not create any sort of more gradual line path (remember, there are several inches between guides).

Figure out what is the smallest size you can use that will still pass all your connections (knots, loops, etc.) and then use those for all your running guides. Generally, you do not need more than 3 guide sizes on any rod. The stripping or butt guide, one in-between size and then the rest in the smallest size that will pass whatever needs to be passed.

The upcoming issue of RodMaker has an article on sizing fly rod guides.
..............

I work back from the fly loop of tip, match that to the ring dia of a SF wire fly guide. A regular size fly loop is the same dia, and height off the blank as a sz SF wire fly guide, an oversize fly top loop is the same as a size 4 SF wire fly guide. You don't need oversize with a 5wt and 3 are plenty big enough and it is the same dia as the guides leading into top, so you don't go from small guides to a larger looped top. although I would do it a shade different I'd start with a sz 10 stripper then 3's (SF Wire Fly) on out to the regular size top

Tom, what a timely post about fly guide sizes. I am sitting in Apopka, Florida, 20 miles from Mudhole, and am putting together a shopping list for my annual trip to their facility. I was just wrestling with what size guides to buy for a project I'm working on. You have solved the problem. Thank you!

Fran

Hello there:
I've been going through the same thing myself. I'm working on a 9', 4 piece 5wt. Winston BIIx blank that I own and have had a hard time with the guide sizes and spacing. It's a little harder if your going to use single foot guides! There are few rod makers out there that you can go and look at, Looms being the easiest to find. But I have felt that there guides where a bit over sized. To make things even harder, guide sizes from one maker to the other are not the same. Then there are rod makers like Sage that like smaller guide sizing on there rods and do quite good with them. I did know an old timer back in the 70's who would tell you that the smallest guides that wouldn't chock the the line was the best to use for good line control and presentation.That was at a time when most people where saying bigger guides and tip tops where needed on the new rods of the times. So I've been thinking smaller might be a better way to go.

12mm Titan casting guide for the stripping guide The Titan guides are a little lighter than the Gold Cermat and look nicer with the Recoil guides.
10mm Titan fly guide for the tamming guide
#4 Recoil RSFX-4 X1
#2 Recoil RSFX-2 X1
#1 Recoil RSFX-1 X7
small loop Recoil tip top
Thank You;

A follow up to the original question. Do larger guides let you shoot line better? I'm going to be using the rod mainly in the Baltic sea, fishing for seatrout and it's always nice to reach that extra few feet when it is called for.
Paul Kalbrener

Once you go past "big enough" all larger guides do is put extra weight on the rod that will actually reduce distance. If larger was better, than why not use really big guides, #20's all the way out. I think you can imagine what that would do to a rod.

............

Hi there;
Take a look at the Sage's TCR line of rods. There using small guide sets on there rods (1/0's on the 5wt. & 1's on the 6wt. at the tip end) and the TCR rods are one of the finest distance rods made. See the Sage site for their guide sizes and spacing on their rods.
Thank You;

Hi,

As always, a good question, good debate, lots of good advice. Here's my two cents: What you fish for and where you fish are key elements to the right answer. First, a technical point- The Sage TCR does use fairly small guides, but those are snake guides, so are actually the equivalent of a larger single foot guide. Also, being snake guides, you can use a much larger single foot wire guide and still have less weight than the smaller snake guide has, because you have less thread and epoxy on the blank. If you are concerned about weight, the difference in weight between a size 4 and size 3 wire single foot guide is negligible- I think 3 or 4 turns of thread and the associated extra epoxy weighs more. Also, the biggest SF wire guide, a size 6, probably weighs less than the smallest ceramic insert guide, so you're already ahead by using SF's. My guide sizing on a 5 weight is #12, #10 SIC strippers, 3 5's single foot, then 5 4's. ( I don't think its a performance thing having the 5's, just aesthetics- all the 5's are on the 3rd section, the 4's on the tip section of a 4 piece rod. To keep it most simple, go 12,10, then 8 4's. ) I never go smaller than 4's for the following reason: Much of the fishing I do is on rivers, with a lot of line on the water that has to be mended and stripped. I fish indicators a lot, and am able to run a long downstream drift with an indicator. The biggest felt difference in guide performance comes when I am mending line downstream. In getting an uninterrupted, drag free drift, the line has to come out of the guides cleanly. If the tip guides are too small, the fly line will hang in them a little, and if the stripping guide is too small, it may hang up coming off the water in front of me. The downstream mending motion basically entails moving the rod tip in a circle, laying the fly line on the water upstream, then the surface tension pulls the line out of my guides as I move the rod downstream and feed line up to the rod with my stripping hand. If the current is ripping, this happens really quick! If there is any interruption in the line flow, my indicator will hang up a little, which lifts my egg pattern or nymph off the bottom and ends the drag free drift. The other noticeable difference is when pulling the leader knot onto the rod, to land a fish. I commonly use 10-12 foot leaders, with a 25 or 30# stiff mono butt section nail knotted to the fly line. Smaller guides cause that knot to hang when pulling it through the guides. If you're using light tippet, and you have the knot up in your guides, and the fish decides to take off again, you don't want the knot hanging up!! Say good bye to that dream fish that you built your rod to catch... if you wanted to catch average ordinary fish you could use an average ordinary rod, not a custom built rod, right? These are questions that rarely get asked or answered when a person is talking about "rod performance." It is so easy to get caught up in the technical jargon that involves casting performance, and forget about how the rod will fish. To me, the fishability of the rod is the main concern. I'm handicapping my rod by having a big wind resistant indicator on there, and usually a heavily weighted fly under it, so casting performance is going to be harder to measure, but the big difference comes in how well I can control my line once its on the water. A good clean drift 10 feet off the rod tip will catch fish; a sloppy drift 70 feet away from you is less than worthless, as it can make a fish suspicious of your fly, and unwilling to bite anything!

Steve