greetings all-

i am working on wrapping my first rod. i am having some difficulty and think its caused by my wrapping setup. hoping someone can educate me on the mechanics.

1. how do you control the 'lead' of the thread as you wrap. i say lead because to me its like cutting threads on a lathe.

2. what should the angle of thread as it wraps onto the blank. does it matter?

i made myself 3 felt lined crooks to support the blank. they hold the blank about 6 inches high off the table. they have a register underneath to line them all to the edge of the table and i clamp them with quick grip clamps. i can move the crooks along the blank as needed.

i have the spool of thread in a small glass and ran the thread through the pages of a book (aisc code if anyone cares). the thread comes out of the book at a shallow angle. the book is about a foot behind the blank.

i have tried wrapping over the top of the blank and from under the blank. tension seems to be ok based on the few wraps that i have completed. guides are snug but i can nudge them around to the right place to get them on the spine.

i am having a tough time controling the wraps. i seem to have to stop every few turns and then nudge the threads in order. it gets to be a real problem on smaller guides because there is not enough room to fix the wrap and keep a thin piece of tape to hold the guide down.

so i am thinking that my setup is causing me problems. at what position/angle do you want the thread to roll onto the blank? i have seen pictures of the thread carriages and the like. they seem to bring the thread straight up to the blank from the bottom. will this make a difference?

thanks.

dennis

Hi Dennis and WELCOME!

Seems like you've got it done perfectly! When I started I used a set-up much like yours.
Although in the very beginning I use coat hangers bent into a spring clamps as rod
supports clamped to my table. I had the same problem with getting the threads to go
on close together as when I turned the blank it would move a bit one way or the other
and the angle of the thread did NOT remain constant. So, what I did was put a heavy
object on the butt side of my set up and put the butt of the blank up against that as I
turned it. That fixed the problem! I also found it was easier for me if the thread wraped
over the top as I rotated the rod towards me. As the thread angle gets sharper as you
wrap, it will eventually want to wrap back onto itself. Thats when you want to stop and
move the book over in the wrap direction a bit then continue.

After some practice it will get easier!

Better start the therapy now while the medication dosages can be maintained at the
lower levels! This addiction cannot be cured but with constant trips to the sponsors
web sites and many phone calls to your favorite financial institutions along with a
subscription to RodMaker Magazine you can lead a semi-normal life.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Wow - this is really a "whatever works for you" kind of Q&A.

I like to keep the book ~20" inches away from the rod, and move it along the long axis to get an angle that is about 5 degrees to the OUTSIDE (away from the Guide Ring) of my wrap direction (from the TOE up toward the HEEL).

IMO, the longer distance gives the nylon's stretch a little more elastic range. And the cross-over angle helps reduce the amount of open spaces and subsequent packing needed later. You can move the rod laterally in the cradle to constantly adjust and maintian this angle of lap. As you move to a new guide, just slide the book into a better position.

The longer distance between the book & the rod also reduces the flattening effect on the Thread if the book is too close to the rod, as the page edge scrapes the Thread flat, like when women take the edge of a scissor and curl a nylon ribbon for a Xmas package.

Most guys probably prefer the line to come onto the rod blank from OVER THE TOP of the Rod Blank, so they can see it as it winds onto and lays down onto the rod blank.

Again, whatever works for you. -Cliff Hall

Yep! I forgot to mention that an increased distance from book to rod lessens the
need to move the book (tension device) as often.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

THANKS!

I will try your suggestions when I try them when I wrap again. I think moving the book back and lengthening the thread beyond the rod may just be the ticket.

As is the usual case, my job gets in the way of my hobbies.

Dennis

Also keep the Thread ROLLING OFF the Spool, not unfurling off as it does when it comes off a Spinning Reel. Use an axle of some sort if needed (even a wooden BBQ skewer taped over the mouth of the glass jar). -Cliff Hall.

tensioning the thread is a bad way to tension thread, it leads to frays and is hard to back up. The lead you need is to just stay in front of the hwere the line is coming off the tensioned thread spool in either direction the line is traveling as it is coming off the spool. I hold the rod in my hand and the tensioned spool is on the far side of me and the thread angles up to the top of the blank as I hand sp[in on the thread. placing my thumb overvthe threads to hole things secure it I put slack in the otherwise thesioned thread being applied. Check out my gallery for a better way to tension thread on the cheap. look at this pic it the lower tensioning devise, check out the rest of my gallery for other helpful homemade rod building fixtures.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

look at the lower simplistic spool tensioner which is better than the cup and phone book

Chris,
Not to disagree with you. However, Dennis did say this was his first rod build
and many NEW builders like to take a very minimal approach in regards to
equipment and such not wanting to make the time and monetary investments
until they find out if they are going to like what they have started.

I agree that a tension device that restricts spool rotation rather than squeezing the'
thread is a better design. However, the book method or other types of sewing machine style tension devices work just fine. Especially for a beginner.

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Cliff-

Thanks for picking up on the spool paying out vs rolling off. that may make a big difference too!

at times when i had to 'back-up' i would pull the thread back through the book to take up the slack and it would birds-nest. i thnk the key there is to not back up!

The thread spool tensioner does not look too complicated. You are using the eleastic to bind the axle and generate friction of the rim of the spool against the board?
does it roll smoothly or dies it chatter? IIRC, the spools are an injection molded plastic type of thing with the keeper washer. they are pretty true.

dennis

Yea Dennis,
Cliff was right on with that one! I remember the now the first couple rods I
did I had twisted threas so bad I had to cut it off the spool and let it untwist
itself then pinch it between my fingers and slide along it to further untwist it.

A horrible experience and Im almost glad I forgot! LOL!

Actually Dennis if you place the spool into a small glass and just keep an eye
out when the thread gets to one side of the spool and wants to flip the spool
up onto it's side, just pull some off the spool so its not comming off the very
end. That small amount that lays loosely on the table will feed into the book
no problem. You could take the time to make a small spool stand or build
a completely new tension device but it's not needed to complete the rod your
building now.



Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2006 05:52PM by Raymond_Adams.

Dennis:

Yes elastic cord is used to pull the arrow shaft back to the board which then tensions the spool. There is a series of nails on the back side of the board to adjust the tension. Slots for the spool rim and a depression for where the thread lies on the spool are cut into the board. The little piece of sticky back closed cell foam (placed inbetween the spool lips) is crutial as the thread then can not jump off the side of the spool and tangle around the spool shaft. (in this case a cut off carbon arrow shaft) If you look at the description for the pic I provided or one of the pics (maybe the one with the handdrill lathe (2nd page of my photo gallery) and the thread tensioner it goes into detail about the lower simple to build elastic cord spool tensioner, check it out

Ray
I read the books way back when and tried the phone book and cup and quickly built that quicky tensioner, I then used it for 15 yrs and still do, it is about as simple as consturcting a bag of hammers and does not require an sewing machine to upgrade, but makes the major step of tensioning the spool not the thread and pays off uniformly not adding twist in jumping off the side of the spool (then you can back up which your going to have to do some time)

Dennis - Yeah, hope that helps.
Good luck, and have fun, man, ... -Cliff Hall, FL-USA.

thanks to all who have chimed in. i took some time to research spool stands and build a little spool stand imitating a design that i saw online. basically 2-5/16" studs for the spools to spin on, a clamp plate that sandwiches the spools to the stand and plastic washers to make things 'friction-less.'

now my thread comes off the spools nice and smooth. makes lining things up real easy too! with regular thread, my wraps are lining up pretty like and the braid ofthe thread make nice patterns.

now my problem is the metallic thread. when i lay it on the blank and tie it off, the surface of the wraps look 'faceted'. the pattern of the thread does not look like that of the regular thread. is this normal? i need to figure out how to post pics for review next.

the best way i can describe it is that the surface of the threads look angular not smooth. like a chain wrapped around an object. my factory rods with metalics look smooth. i wonder if i have too much tension on the thread.

dennis

Dennis wrote: "... the surface of the threads look angular not smooth. like a chain wrapped around an object. my factory rods with metalics look smooth. i wonder if i have too much tension on the thread." Dennis Pantazis

Probably too tight. ... Also, is there a sharp edge over which the thread travels as it is pulled onto the rod blank? Any Thread Guide Loop should be VERY SMOOTH, and of as FAT a screw-eye diameter as possible. That is, it should be several millimeters in diameter, and not of a fine wire diameter like a small sewing needle. The metallic foil does not like to have to wind around or pass over tiny diameters. Best wishes, Dennis. ... Cliff Hall



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2006 04:42PM by Moderator.

cliff-

i don;t have a screw eye gizmo in my setup- a simple post to hold the spools at about the height of my rod supported in the stands. rolls off the top of the spool and right to the blank. thread is about level with the spool and the blank. i got the picture thing figured out, now i have to take some pics. the only thing that the metallic thread pases from/over is the spool to the blank.

the more i think about it the thread is probably too tight. i will remove and re-wrap the guides as an experiment.

i am using forcast guides which were 'preground' and plated. i found that passing them over a fine stone scuffed the plating to a dull matt finish that let the threads grip a little better and made a better wrap.

thanks again for your help. i will check back in a few days. gotta get some fishing in!

dennis

Dennis

The metallic thread your describing, sounds alot like what sz "D" mettallic thread looks like, thats why I use sz "A" exclusivly, its fiine enough so you don't see the braided metallic outer weave "lattice pattern" over the inner core. Sz "A" HT Braid by gudebrod has been strengthened so it can be used as a mainfield color to secure guide feet.

i uploaded some pictures of my thread stand and guide wraps.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

there are a couple of things that are still bugging me.

1. the threads pulled under the main wraps won't go flat. these are the tag ends of the main and trim wrap. i did burnish some, but how do you flatten the tag end?

2. my metallic thread seems to be pulling apart!

i used the method that ray adams emailed to me to make my trim wraps. its pretty clever!

the trim wraps on this guide were made with a 4" piece of HT thread that i simply unfurled from the spool and let flop around as i wrapped the first 1/8" and trimmed the locking tag end. then i manualy wraped the 3x for trim band with NO tension and then pulled the tag through via the loop. as soon as the trim thread started to pull under, i trimmed the tag end so its length was shorted than the length of main wrap. however it appears that the core of the thread has pulled through where my loop exited. additionally, notice the spiral pattern to the thread. it looks like the mylar is uncoiling.

if i let the HT metallic thread simply uncoil off of the spool, it starts to spin and birdsnest. why does it do this? might i have a bad spool?

thanks again for your help

dennis