Hi
I`m thinking about building a muskie rod on Lamiglas LGM721H (6' 17-40lb). Should I underwrap the guides? When do you start to use underwrap? 30lb or less/more?
I think I`d go with Fuji Alconite guides? What do you think?
Thanks,

Underwraps are cosmetic additions, they really aren't needed in any functional aspect.

Whether you use an underwrap or not, do make sure your guide feet are flat and smooth on the bottom.

..........

IMHO uderwraps do two things: protect the blank from metal to blank contact, and give you another avenue for customization. Cheap and blanks I never underwrap, expensive blanks I always do unless I am told otherwise. IMHO the only blanks that I think do not need underwraps are solid glass blanks, and even then I usually underwrap for cosmetic reasons.

Lou

If blanks required underwraps for that sort of protection, the manufacturers would so instruct. There is no problem with guide foot to blank contact. A properly prepped guide foot will not harm a rod blank in the least. A poorly prepped foot can damage a blank with or without an underwrap.

............

Lou,
I understand your logic but I have a much different take on underwraps and the type of blank. An expensive blank is usually going to be a blank with a higher modulus of elasticity. It will be lighter for a given power. It does not make a lot of sense to me to pay more for a blank that is lighter and then add the weight back in with underwraps, essentially throwing away what you paid extra for. The thread itself that is in the underwraps is not all that heavy but epoxy is surprisingly heavy. I did some testing for an article in a past issue of RodMaker that demonstrated that underwraps and the required extra epoxy will add as much 25% or 30% as much weight as the guides themselves weigh on a typical Steelhead rod. Plus I think that I would argue that if the guides are properly prepared there is no need to do anything else to protect the blank.

Thanks.

What do you mean by "properly prepared"?

When using underwraps, do you wrap the base thread and then use epoxy prior to wrapping the guide on? Or do you do both layers of thread before adding epoxy?

I never used that so far. That`s why I`m asking.

Dave and Bartosz,

I underwarp most of the rods I build but they are saltwater rod and yes you should put a coat of epoxy on the under wraps. If you don't your overwraping thread will go between your underwrap threads or use A thread on the underwrap and D thread on the overwrap but that would give you even more weight.

I agree with those that advised you not to underwrap a graphite rod as the underwrap will slow the rod down. If your'e set on underwraps put on false underwraps. That will cut down on the amount of thread and epoxy used.

Hank
On The Rocks Fishing
Wells, ME.

By "properly prepared" we'd be talking about making sure the guide undersides are flat and conform to the blank and do not exhibit bumps, burrs, etc. A smooth flat surface on another smooth flat surface creates a situation where one is not going to hurt the other.

.........

Thanks!
I think I`ll try without underwrap, with a D thread.

Bartosz,

I don't want to tell you what to use on your rod but D thread on a smaller graphite blank will look like rope on your guides. If you want info on how to do a false underwrap send me your email address and I will send you the info. False underwraps are not hard to do with a little planing. My email address is Hank@OnTheRocksFishing.com

Hank
On The Rocks Fishing
Wells, ME.

Milton,

Do you think D thread isn`t propper for such powerful blank and big guides?
Here`s my e-mail burii@go2.pl
Thanks!

Bartosz,

No, I'm not going to tell you that using D thread is wrong. Each builder has to use what material they want and no one should tell you different. I'm only saying that D thread is heavy and looks like rope when used on smaller rods. Some builders love the look of D thread and that's what they use. "A" thread is strong enough for most every rod except maybe heavy off shore rod.

I will send you the info a little later. Have to go out for a little while.

Hank
On The Rocks Fishing
Wells, ME.

Hank,
You just answered my question. I hac tried to put A on top of A and it looked like(You know what)! Thanks for the solution!!

Ed Smith

Bartosz,
I only use Size A thread on all my rods. I strictly use Rods in the 7' length with 8 to 17lb. class medium to medium light rods. They are absolutely beautiful when using Size A thread. The Size D thread does look like rope on smaller diameter rods. I double wrap all guides and it is plenty strong for large Redfish and Speckled Trout. I fish for a living and all my clients always comment on how the rods hold up and the action is not altered by using Size A thread. I only use one coat of epoxy on all my wraps to keep the weight down to some extent.
Capt. Marvin Engel

I always use A thread or Madiera (slightly smaller than A. Have never done an underwrap That being said, I should point out that the biggest rods I do are Musky and salmon trolling rods. I also RARELY use double foot guides.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Not a position paper on necessity of underwraps - but - if you end up wanting to do A on top of A there are a few tricks for it to work cleanly. Run underwrap with upped tension and use constant light packing pressure. If you use the technique of wrapping for a distance and then packing you need to be sure that all bands are packed evenly. Back off on tension slightly for overwrap. I use this quite often with metallic silver underwrap and white NCP A on top for a background for colored decals. If you are doing this it is quite easy to add a coat of CP to the underwrap is you are having trouble in pulling through.

I have tested A underwrap topped with three D overwraps and no CP for one coat finish penetration of all layers. If you get the finish on quickly while it is still thin it will go through all layers. If you are using CP you really need to think about the location of the CP boundary and where exactly do you want or need the finish for rod strength.

Gon Fishn

Oop, regrets if the thread takes a sideways turn, but I didn't do it.
On thread: with the darker shades, on a darker blank, with no CP, with regular thread, letter designate is moot......I regularly use EE on repairs, because it's fast, being thick, and thick to conform to irregularities on the blank, from fast resin removal on the factory job...with **no gaps**...
Our resins just blend it all together, the same as a thinner thread.
If the resin is the low-end stuff from offshore that's very hard and quite brittle, it's not cost-efficient to totally remove it for the repair/re-wrap. It's a different story with North American resins, which are very flexible, and much softer than the Asian formula.
I need to wear safety glasses when removing offshore threadwork.... the resin comes off like little shards of glass. Our stuff remains on the rod, like an onion layer. Just one man's opinion. Freedom of choice prevails.

My underwraps are always size A. When I triple wrap (underwrap and two over wraps) I almost always use A on the first bind and D on the top bind. Sometimes I triple wrap with all size A...A on top of A on top of A. Never really seem to have a problem.

After wrapping an A underwrap and an A guide wrap sometimes I'm happy to see that final guide wrap in size D thread. It seems to fly on compaired to the A.

My point is...A over A really isn't a big problem in my opinion.

These two pictures .....
[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

..... are both triple wrapped in all size A thread. A over A over A

Jay



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2006 09:51AM by Jay Lancaster.