With my own custom built rods and with a few factory rods moisture permeates the finish on the wraps leaving a cloudy appearance until the moisture evaporates. I generally use Flexcoat products and have also used Gudebrod products. I'm not meaning to imply that this is a materials problem - I suspect this is a process problem. I would appreciate any advice to overcome this.

It's called Polyamine blush, and it's a fairly common anomolie with all amine based resins. Basically it's when moisture and CO2 combine in specific amounts and produce the "blush" in the finish. I had it happen one time to me about 6 years ago w/FlexCoat, and it has never happened since.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

Water being allowed to "get to or soak" underwraps can also cause a horrible blush and in some cases an irreversible color change. This for some reason will occur more frequently if a metallic thread is used for an underwrap. There is a chance that the condensation boundary between the mettalic foil wrapping of the thread is trapping and allowing the moisture to condense on the surface. If you trim a stick up where the end of the thread is exposed or do not seal the ends of wraps with a trim of finish you are asking for troubles. Too much finish applied to guide feet which results in climbing and cracking is also a place for entrance of moisture. I use metallic underwraps and butt wraps under decals on most rods I build. I have also noticed that I have not had one such occurance on a polished surface blank with no finish. There may be some water invasion occuring between the blank finish and the underlying thread. This mechanical entrance of water is different than the blush that Andy is referring to and probably is more frequent.

Gon Fishn

I think Bill is closer on this one if your problem is happening after the epoxy has cured. From what you say, I am assuming this is correct. It's almost certainly a matter of water getting underneath the finish and then having to evaporate over a bit of time. Best way to keep it from happening is to make sure to extend the epoxy finish just a hair past the edges of the wraps and make sure you fill the tunnels where the guide foot and blank meet - where the thread is not flush to the surface of the blank. Get some epoxy in there.

You can possibly apply a thin coat of finish over what you have now. Clean and scuff the existing finish and go to work. Although if it's only happening on a few guides, just do those or maybe just apply some finish into the tunnels and not coat the whole wrap.

If your problem is happening while you apply the finish, as Andy mentioned, then it is indeed a situation where moisture and CO2 have combined in the right amount to cause the blush. But from your post it sounds like this is an after the fact situation that occurs every time you use the rods on wet days.

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Now you've got me worrying. I did a weave the other day and havent had the time to apply the finish yet. I dont normally let them sit too long before applying finish, but this time it was unaviodable (poor planing on my part). Its got pretty humid down there in the shop. Do I need to be concerned about driving out moisture somehow (?) from the threads before applying finish, because I've let it sit in that environ now for a couple of days?

Probably not. But if you're terribly worried, bring it upstairs into an air conditioned room for a couple hours before finishing it.

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Thanks for all of the replies on this issue. Confirming Tom's understanding, the blushing condition occurs anytime I leave the rods in a damp or wet location, such as a rainy day of fishing. Most of these rods are at least ten years old but have doing this since the first month they were put to use. Tom your comment about extending the epoxy "a hair" past the edges of the threads - wouldn't 1/16" be enough? This is typically what I provide. I also apply 2-3 coats thin coats of epoxy over the color preserver and take care to fill the voids where the guide foot meets the blank. One thing I was wondering about is if the color preserver extends past where the epoxy edge is, could the exposed edge of the color preserver be creating a bridge for moisture to travel under the epoxy? Another thought is that my epoxy mixture is bad and is allowing moisture to permeate directly throught it. On a rainy day when a rod is not in use you can actually see how the blushing is heavier at the beads of moisture on the surface of a butt wrap 6" long, which doesn't seem like a problem of moisure leaching under the epoxy edges. Referring to Bill's comments, I have this condition occur on virtually all of my rods, and I have two that are unfinished polished blanks. I also use metallic thread for trim and accent wraps, but there is no tag exposure. This problem is pervasive and any additional insights would be appreciated. If it would help I could photograph the condition and send it .

Well, you'd certainly want the epoxy to extend past any thread or CP there. It needs to encapsulate the wrap completely.

I doubt you have a bad batch of finish or anything. I need to look at some of my rods when used for many hours on rainy days. I haven't noticed the blushing you mention but it's entirely possible that water on the surface of the finish might cause some temporary blushing, much like when you exhale on a pane of glass.

I also assume that after drying for a few hours, the blushing goes away.

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Dan, ditch the flex coat. For years I used flex coat and know exactly what you are talking about. I switched to U 40 and ultimately to Threadmaster, problem over!

Tom and Fred,

Thank you both for the additional comments. Tom the blushing will disappear but also seems to affect the wraps permanently after many exposures to moisture. To test it for yourself, stick the rod outside overnight on a rainy night or when a heavy dew is present in the morning.

Fred, I'd like to try Threadmaster. Do you use both Threadmaster color preserver and Threadmaster epoxy?

In 25 years of using Flex Coat (CP and finish) I've never once seen blushing on any of my rods. I've seen it on some store bought rods though. It isn't the product that causes it.

Andy Dear is describing something I see often on the SURFACE of cured thread finish. Most often I see it when I am getting the boat ready to fish the bay or ocean, whenever water droplets have been allowed to set on the cured rod finish on a humid warm morning. But as soon as the sun dries things off the blush is gone. It looks pretty ugly, but does not seem to harm the finish any. It is not the thread blushing, and it is not cp doing it since I don't use the stuff.

I too am not pointing any fingers at any cause, just describing what I see - this phenomenon seems most prevalent on flexcoat finish.

Lou

I've experienced the Polyamine blush for a long time on rods built many years ago using Brlliance and Flexcoat, but never Crystal Coat which I used as much as Flexcoat at that time. However, I never experienced the other blushing problem until much more recently (past three years or so) after returning to rodbullding and using 811, LS Supreme and Threadmaster.
That's not to suggest a particular finish or CP/finish combination is the problem, but after reading these posts it strikes me one or the other might figure as a contributing factor if the primary cause is something else, such as the degree of stress the guide feet are experiencing in use.
The obvious culprit is moisture invasion. How it invades also pretty clearly is a finish breach. Although my blushing doesn't all appear at the end of guide feet and tunnels enough of it does
to suggest that stress in those areas could be breaching the finish.
If that's the case, it raises other considerations about avoiding undue stress such as guide-foot preparation, perhaps proper guide placement and maybe most significantly, a particular degree of finish flexibility that deals better with the various stresses of flexing..
The main reason that comes to mind for me is that I have casting rods built up to 25 years ago that are still in strenuous use and never have had the problem. They're the same ones that never have experienced the Polyamine blush -- the ones finished with Brilliance and Crystal Coat.
In any event, I was happy to see this thread because I've been increasingly frustrated by this new (for me) problem that I haven't been able to avoid yet.

The epoxy is never the cause of the polyamine blush - that is caused by the right combination of moisture and CO2. I've had it happen only once in finishing hundreds and hundreds of rods, with about every type of finish available during the past 3 decades.

What Dan is experiencing is not polyamine blush - rather it's pretty much what happens when you exhale in a mirror or pane of glass, from the inside.

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Tom is absolutely correct. This is NOT blushing, and this playing on words is one of the biggest causes of myths and myth making. Polyamine blushing happens once and only once, and that one time is during the curing stage of the epoxy. After it has cured and hardens, blushing is no longer possible. What is being experienced here is merely common moisture creep under the cured epoxy --- this moisture creep is merely due to the wrap not being properly sealed --- and the causes of not being sealed are many and varied. One of the most common is for the CP to extend on the rod beyond the epoxy coating, and the moisture will travel along the CP under the epoxy and into the wrap causing discoloration which will dissappear when the wrap is dried out, but will happen again the next time it is exposed to moisture.
Ralph

The "clouding" effect is consistent along the full length and circumference of a six inch butt wrap. It is not limited to the edge of a wrap. It is also entirely consistent at every guide wrap on the same rod. The entire rod looks this way when it gets wet, not just the first quarter inch from the edge of a given wrap. This condition appears to occur via the epoxy finish. There is no moisture migration that is visible from the edge of a wrap. I'm sure I've had some color preserver extend past the epoxy finish on occasion but not every single wrap on over 20+ rods. Your certainty of the cause runs into a statistical buzz saw here.

Sorry about the terminology mix up. I am unfamiliar with much of the jargon associated with rod building. When I saw "blushing" come up on this thread, I assumed it was correct terminology to use for the condition.

Thanks for your comments. -Dan Launstein

Still wouldn't be polyamine blush, but if every guide does it then I'd have to agree that it's something about the moisture and the finish you used.

One thing I may have missed when I read it originally, but when the rods dries after a few hours does everything go back to normal? I still tend to feel that what you have is akin to exhaling on a pane of glass.

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The moisture will evaporate after a few hours normally. I did notice that a chalky white residue akin to waterspots left on the surface of the finish after the moisture is gone. It is hard to get off and requires buffing with a cloth.

Another thing I noticed is that there is a very fine crazing (cracking) of the finish on the side rods predominantly exposed to sunlight during storage on the boat . I am a bass fisherman and alternate using up to six rods per fishing trip. They set on the bow next to me so they are ready at hand. This is why they are exposed to sunlight on one side more than the other. Do you suppose the moisture is traveling through there? Not to change the subject but now I wonder what I can do to stop this cracking from happening.

It may be possible. Here is one thing to try - take just one of those rods. Scuff the finish with Scotchbrite and then put a thin coat of epoxy over the guide wraps. Use a different brand, just to see if it makes any difference. If that cures the problem on one rod, then it would safe to say the moisture was passing through the coating, perhaps through some very fine micro-cracks or crazing.

Let us know what happens.

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One thing that has not been discussed. What other things have you applied to the rods since completion? Car wax, Starbrite With Teflon, WD-40, Carquest Lube, Reel EZE, Chlorox, Gasoline, Fish Blood. There may be some penetration of contaminants that has not been considered. The white powder you mentioned hopefully is not Anthrax! Maybe there is a terrorist working our craft secretely.

Cheek in Tongue! But possible.

Gon Fishn



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2006 07:47PM by Bill Stevens.