I know this is a dumb question, but I have to ask. How close to CP is Elmers glue? I tried it on an experamental wrap and it seems to work fine, with no adverse effect.

I don't know, but to save a few quarters, why risk it????

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

If i have to use a cp i use PVA glue ( the white woodwork adhesive) so far no probs
allen

Thinned elmers glue is very much like acrylic CP.
However, like Mike B. said "why risk it?"
As a substitute for CP for an emergency repair maybe but to
use in place of CP for a build? Not a good idea IMHO. Better
to get the real deal. To ruin a day's( or more ) work to say a
few pennys is pound foolish!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Elmers Glue and Acrylic CP are not even close to being the same thing. I think you'll be disappointed if you rely on Elmers as your color preserver.

.......................

Sounds like I'm getting bashed for asking a question. curiosity got the best of me, and I wanted to try it (on one of mey "try, strip it down, and try again rods") I really don't think a few cents, is worth screwing up a customers rod. It seemed to work and wanted to know what the dif was.
This is only the 2nd question I have asked on this board, and seemed to have gotten flamed both times. I guess I'll go back to just reading everyone ealses comments and questions.

Mark,

I had the same question you had about color preservers and did a bit of experment. Several items from Michael's craft shop gave functional results. Also the various polyurethane products such as Olympia waterbased polyurethane and other similar products work well. In my experience, Future floor polish performed poorly.. I also tried Elmer's white glue diluted a bit with distilled water. It worked, but was at the low end of the scale.

I probably tried about 12-13 "off-the shelf" products on a light yellow Madeira thread and had a controlled wrap. The actual data results are probably burrowed beneath an accumulation of rodbuilding debris laying around. I cannot find the tabulation sheet.

As for myself, I use denatured alcohol diluted Gudebrod 811, but have the above back-up options.

Please don't feel as if you have been flamed by anyone on this site - it's not allowed. However, folks here tend to give their best and most considered opionon on rodbuilding, sometimes in fairly terse terms.

Best thing to do is keep on asking questions. Test wraps with various CP alternatives is the best way to actually see how they work on threads used.

Stan

IMO, Stan Gregory's advice best summarizes the take-home advice on the use of alternates to rod-building products as a Color Preserver.

May I add that the final test comes after the overcoat of thread finish cracks around the toe or the heel of the guide foot (due to flexing), and fresh or salt water creeps in.

Will your alternate to CP tolerate exposure to moisture / WATER infiltration, without turning MILKY? ... You can simulate this abuse by letting the alternate CP cure for several days. Then, before you overcoat it with thread finish, expose it directly to some water and see what happens. Pour some hot tap water over it. Or submerge the test wrap in a pan or bottle of water overnight. (You don't need to wrap a guide foot on this test wrap.)

IMO, Submerging the test wrap in water actually simulates actual conditions reasonably well, because if water ever does get into the wrap on a rod, it will stay wet for several hours, if not several days, until the water can escape from within the crevice.

BTW, if you don't have pieces of scrap rod blank available, for some test wraps like this, you can just use a bamboo skewer.or wooden barbeque "shishkabob". About 5 cents each. Since this use is for a water-exposure test, the fact that the wood can soak up the water into the inside of the thread wrap really presents a worst case scenario very well.

If you ever want to use the skewers as an IMPERVIOUS platform for test wraps, just get a can of water-proof varnish and a 2 inch cheapo disposable paint brush. Stick a bunch of these skewers in a piece of sturdy styrofoam. Varnish them, and you will have a dozen or a hundred pieces of super-cheap "scrap blank" to test any CP or Thread Finish or Thread Brand (for no-CP color shift or fading from sunlight) that you want.

-Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

Mark,I had to go back and reread the posts to see here you got bashed.Sorry you feel that way but I didnt see bashing,just some constructive critism mostly about saving a few pennies vs. building a long lasting quality rod.No question is stupid unless you dont ask it.another thing to consider is that dry Elmers glue will crack and is not flexable.CP companies put alot of time and effort into the product(at least Andy Dear at Lamar does) to assure it is going to do what it is intended to do.Key word being intended.Glue is used to bond items together CP is used to preserve thread color.Just as I wouldnt try to thin some rod epoxy and try to finish wraps with it.Please feel free to ask any questions and dont feel bashed if the comments seem a little harsh.These are all good people meaning well and sometimes to get the point across dont sugar coat things.
A suggestion would be to buy your CP in a larger quanity and put a small amount into a smaller container for use.That way you are not always exposing the large bottle to air every time it is opened and you will also have a reserve on hand and can order some more befor you run out therefore no need to use a subsitute.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Mark, The answers that were posted to your question are hardly "bashing". You wanted to know what the difference was and I thought they were good answers.

I guess I took things wrong. Mouth full of hurting teeth (dentist today) put me in a bad mood. Sorry I took it as bashing.
All points well taken.
I'm not trying to save a few penny's. I just like experamenting with things and found this to be a good one to try. Wanted to get others imput, and that I did. I received good imput to be exact.
Thank you everyone for the responses.

Mark,
Was certainly NOT trying to bash you (nor was anyone else). There are builders who use other products but you asked for input. No reason to stop asking questions. This is the best sources of info/help available. Keep uding it!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I think bashing would have been more along the lines of....why are you wasting our time asking this question, when all you have to do to see if it works is test it yourself? Stop being so lazy and relying on others, figure it out on your own dammit!

lol. Not that I would say that.

I have used dilute Elmers and other higher end craft glues quite a bit and they will work provided the overcoat is completely waterproof and does not crack over time allowing water intrusion. Just like quoted above. I also use Future Floor Acrylic rather extensively (its cheap and I build mostly give away rods that get rebuilt regularly due to misuse) and have not had any problems with it that were not the direct result of me screwing up somewhere in the wrapping process.

Hey, a few years ago, Madeira sewing thread was a no-no and now even Doc Ski uses it right. Who knows, you may discover the next "good thing" during your search for alternatives. As a "kitchen sink" rodbuilder mytself I look for such things all the time.

I would be VERY interested in hearing more of the specifics of your experiences Stan G. in regards to Future.



Derek L. McMaster
Rohnert Park, CA

Born to Fish, FORCED to Work

Tom Kirkman and I had an in-depth discussion regarding color preservers.

The Diamondite Color Preserver is very unique. It is a urethane based product with a drying agent to accelerate the curing process. I found during the testing of our Diamondite Rod Finish that I needed a preserver that bonded to the threads and penetrated to the blank. I also wanted a product that wasn’t sensitive to excessive application to eliminate builder error. I feel that I have solved these issues. The product penetrates completely, bonds to all types of threads and cures in minutes. It also has additives to preserve the brilliance of the finished wrap.

Mark Griffin of @#$%& was been testing preservers for use with the Madeira Thread they are distributing. He found that the Diamondite Color Preserver worked the best.

If you have any questions, please contact me at my shop.

Tim Campbell
Swifty Manufacturing
(626) 963-1142




Tim Campbell
Swifty Manufacturing
(626) 963-1142

I have used diluted elmers/wood glue in the past and will not use it any more. It held the color OK but it seems that the flex coat cracked more often on those rods. I would say stick with tried and true.

White glue ie. Elmers glue is a VINYL technology. All color preservers that work are either ACRYLIC or URETHANE/ACRYLIC. Vinyl's in no way are act as a barrier to anything except water. They will make a good water proof wrap if that is all you are interested in. They will not act as a barrier to your rod finishes, and will not prevent the finish from penetrating to the threads. Elmers glue is white in color: so are the water based Acrylics used as color preservers. But there the similarity stops. Any properly managed comparative testing program will reveal that the vinyl's are simply not satisfactory as a color preserver for threads.
Ralph

The Diamondite CP is an interesting product. I used it on some test wraps I did for trying the Diamondite product itself. I need to do more with regard just to the color retention ability of the CP with light threads on dark blanks. Frankly, I liked the way it handled. It reminded me in some ways of the old Bullard CPX, which was my all time favorite.


.................

I was thinning wood glue as a CP. But find that 811 works a lot better and safer.

Tom I thought the Diamondite CP was only to be used with there clear finish and was not compatible with any other clear.

Mark, its not a dumb question. The "white" water based CP's I've used not only look like Elmers, but smell and taste like Elmers too! They even film over at the top of the bottle like Elmers. (Looks like a duck, walks like a duck...must be a Duck.)

I know Elmers can be used in a pinch thinned down a bit, along with other hardware store products( in a pinch.)

Probablly be wise to use some of the clear and newer products on the market today, specially formulated for threads and rodbuilding.