Glad to hear someone is going the "independent testing route". This will provide many the information needed. As far as the sunlight comment earlier I originally thought against using the words uV when talking about exposure of finish. It is almost impossible to relay what you are trying to say on this board without heading off in the wrong direction when trying not to cause controversy.

I really wanted to test the finishes in a fair method over a period of time to evaluate what happens to the opacity. I am aware that many things contribute to "color" in resin systems. The product manufacturers QC controls on the resin and the hardner normally includes a limit on the total iron. Most of the systems are very low, ppm, total iron ppm content. The process equipment used to manufacture the components is normally a system that is free of ferric ion contamination. If somehow someone in the food chain allows the amine containing side of the product to come in contact with a ferrous metal, like an unlined drum, then the whole ball game of iron limits is out the window. If hardner makes a quick color shift to the brown or reddish side after opening the bottle and allowing the product to come in contact with oxygen you would expect the problem to be ferric ion product conatmination.

From the observations I have made on Threadmaster I would think that the quality controls on the materials are pretty good because it looks like the ferric ion contamination problem that faces other finishes had been dealt with pretty well. I would think that there are several things here that some testing would really help out on. The ferric ion discoloration that is seen in the bottles of unmixed hardner should only happen while in the unmixed state. After the finish is mixed, applied and cured there should be no furthur shift in color due to the iron contamination because the oxygen can no longer get to the iron contained in the cured resin.

What I would really like is a finish that would instantly set up on command - like Shazam!

I think Andy makes a good point that discoloration is only part of the puzzle to judge a finish by...Living in the midwest and building mainly freshwater casting and spinning rods on various colored blanks, I have yet to build on a white blank...or even use white thread for anything more than a thin trim band. With this being the case, there are other qualities that I find equally if not more important than clarity. One being leveling and another being durability. If I was building saltwater sticks on white blanks I would probably rank the attributes differently.

Andy, I think the only thing you may of left out of your list of finish characteristics would possibly be smell?...Some I hardly notice, others I need a gas mask for...lol

I believe If a person was to gather the resources as Andy is planning on doing in June, You might as well do a full range of testing on the many different characteristics of all the finishes to include the full list he compiled....It would be a waste to have all the samples and administer the time to study only one attribute of the products being tested. I want to know which has the fastest cure time at room temp.....and which has the best flexibility....and which is the best leveling. By having an independent company test the products and allowing you to print their findings publicly, this will eliminate any bias which would absolutely be necessary since Andy is more than likely leaning one way on this project...lol Hey we all know it's good stuff he's selling, but lets hear it from geeks in the white lab coats. After working with PPG in industrial and residential coatings, I can assure it is very rare when one out of a dozen products dominates more than a few categories of testing. For every attribute a product scores high at, there is usually one inwhich it compensates in. But every once in awhile you will be surprised.

Jeff, I wholeheartedly agree EXCEPT on the leveling. ALL finishes are capable of leveling perfectly (as is any liquid) Leveling is determined entirely by the technique of the person performing the application so any test of that would pretty much be meaningless. No matter what brand you mention on this site, you will probably get as many response from people that have trouble getting it to level as you will that claim it levels better than anything on the market. I saw a ton of beautiful LEVEL finishes on a large number of rods at the N.E.R.D.'s booth in Charlotte and I would guess that there were numerous finishes used by various builders.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mikey,
I agree...sort of...Ralphie O'Quinn and I got into one of our "friendly debates" regarding leveling a few months back. He kept telling me "Andy, ALL FINISHES LEVEL EQUALLY WELL, so you can't say ThreadMaster levels better than any other finish"

My response was "Ralph, I know you are correct BUT certain finishes are more tolerent to application errors, and will still level perfectly with less effort and less 'massaging' than others." To which he wholeheartedly agreed. So does one finish level better than another finish? NO. But some do level better than others under less than perfect application methods, and with less effort and a shorter learning curve.

If I were a beginner I'd like to know I am using a finish that is more forgiving of a novice's mistakes regarding application, and will still come out looking great regardless of whether I put a bit too much on.

So yes, all finishes have the POTENTIAL to level equally well, but some require greater skill and more massaging to achieve that full potential.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing PRoducts

I agree wholeheartedly, Andy. My point was just that as far as "testing" in a lab, the results wouldn't mean much in practical use as it would really depend on the testor.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

I have seen a lot of posts on the board that imply that all finishes are fluid and all fluids will level if left at rest. Some form of rotation, either manual or machine, is required to insure distribtuion of the finish around the circumference of the rod. One of the unique things about rod finishes is that the viscosity changes from very thin fluid, transitions through a viscosity increase and ultimately ends up being solid like. There are internal forces that react within the mass of finish during the curing cycle. These forces are mass related and that is why differenct finishes "may" level better than others. As old man Newton said "every body in the universe is attracted to every other body with a force that is directly proportional to their mass". This means if you apply a glob it may tend to pull finish from a thin spot - this can help cause a wavy finish! If a finish was in the transition stage of cure for a shorter period of time it may end up with a flatter surface appearance. This may the the reason the the now defunct Glass Coat "leveled" so well.

Mr. Stevens,
I really enjoyed and appreciated you sending your gut bombs or alligator sausage or whatever you call them to our rod building get together here and I owe you for that but I cannot let you take one of my hero's name in vain. Mr. Newton to you, did indeed say that two bodies will attract each other with a force proportional to their masses but if I remember correctly he also said that the force will decrease inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Which leads me to believe that the effect that you are referring to with epoxies has more to do with surface tension and viscosity than gravity.

Emory...I was actually thinking the same thing?


Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

Andy,
I am very surprised at that. I would have thought that your heros would have tended to be people like Donald Trump and Martha Stewart rather than Isaac Newton.

LOL! LOL! LOL!

Sorry Andy!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2006 11:24PM by Raymond_Adams.

Ha! Good one.....I know you probably though that the only Newton I was familiar with was the one with the first name of "Fig", but there are a lot of things you don't know about me and my educational background..... it is possible to be a savy business person and posses a technical mind as well. I know you don't always agree with those of us who are "profit motivated" but, that's the nature of the game, and besides if we (being the sponsors) weren't motivated by some sort of profit, this board would cease to exist....which I think we would all hate!

Anyway, let's get back to Guide Wrap Finishes

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2006 08:56AM by Moderator.

Touch'e

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Bill,

I tend to disagree - they will all level the same if put on early in their pot life.

We tend to forget that waves, bumps, hills, valleys, etc., are the not the result of failure to level. They are the result of a sag or droop (which all of these epoxies will do on the bottom of the wrap) being distributed around the circumference of the wrap when it is rotated. No epoxy finish out there will rise up and create hills or lumps or waves on top of a surface - if you don't rotate the rod, any such lumps, bumps,etc will all form in the same place - on the bottom of the wrap. The top of the wrap will have a level finish surface on it. You can even disturb the surface, add more, move it around, etc., and it will return to level (as long as it is still able to flow).

I would defy anyone to pour or apply any epoxy onto a surface and show me that it does anything other than flow into a level situation. The only way you can create hills, waves, lumps, valleys, etc., is to allow sags and droops to form on the bottom and then distribute them around the rod. You would have to do that - the epoxy will not.


...................


The sample glass with the 6 finishes on it was not done to test for clarity. It was only done to show the builders that all our popular epoxy finishes will level perfectly. Failure to level perfectly is always due to the person applying the finish, not the finish itself. The issue of clarity only became apparent because being on clear glass, you can easily see which ones are the clearest. Diamond II and Threadmaster are nearly glass clear with no noticeable discoloration, thus far. LS Supreme is close behind while the others all have a distinct yellow, brown and in one case, even an orange cast to them.

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Tom,
I think that you are right that all of the epoxy coatings that we use will level well if, as you say, they are applied properly. But I do not think that I totally agree with the phrase that you used "they will all level the same if put on early in their pot life". I think that how well they will tend to level is mainly a function of their viscosity. As you say, they should be applied early in their pot life and this is because the viscosity gets higher and higher over time as they catalyze and the viscosity will in time get so high that they will not level. But some epoxies have higher viscosities to begin with and an epoxy with low viscosity will level faster and easier than a high viscosity epoxy.

Won't a higher vis epoxy allow leveling with a thicker coat than a lower vis finish?

Putter
Williston, ND

Putter,
Yes good point, my guess is that the thickness is a function of surface tension though as well as the viscosity and maybe also somewhat a function of the density. But I would not think that the density is much different from one to another but the viscosity and surface tension will be different. I am not sure what the relationship between surface tension and viscosity is or if the surface tension goes up with an increase in viscosity. Intuitively you would think that it would. But we all know from experience that you can apply a thicker coat of the epoxies that have high viscosities.

It certainly appears too or we wouldn't use or differentiate between high or low build epoxies.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Take the highest viscosity epoxy you can find and apply it to a guide wrap. Do not rotate the rod. Just appy it and let it sit until it cures. I can promise you that it will level perfectly on top of the wrap. It will not create hills or bumps.

Anyone that requires more than 20 to 30 minutes to apply finish needs to speed up or do their coatings in 2 batches. Again, the fault is not that of the epoxy but of the person applying it.

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