I am building a 9' 8 weight for salmon on the Kenia and plan to use alconites. Should I use 7's or 8's for the running guides?

I would use the 7s if they can pass the line-to-leader and any other leader knots that you tie and use.

I just built a 10wt and used 7 Titans as running guides and all of the line and backing knots went through fine

7's are likely fine. In many cases, you could even use 6's. The only way to tell is try a few sets for yourself. Hardloy type fly guides are pretty inexpensive, get a bunch and keep them on hand as your "testing" set.

.........

JIm,

7's will definataly work ok. Can't agree with Tom on size 6 for an 8 wt line. I have built rods with size 8 running guides which have worked very well, but am currently going through a re-think., and will probably go back to size 7.

As long as the knots pass through the ring, the gude foot is about the same length, on 6's as compared to 7's. It takes about 40 lbs of pressure to rip one off the blank. My only issue is that in cold weather small guides ice up sooner, but Stanely's ice paste fixes that and the difference is only a matter of several casts anyway. Might as well run light way out on the tip where leverage and moment excentuate weighs in a detrimental fashion to both arm and blank action

Chris,

I agree the nearer to the end of the rod the bigger the effect any access weight will have. But we need to balance things up a tad. We are dealing with an 8 wt rod not a 3 wt where excess weight would be very detrimental.

There is more in my view than the issue of Knots being able to pass through a guide easily. We have to take into account the diameter of the belly part of an 8 wt fly line. Now a floater size 8 is significant compared to the ID of a size 6 ceramic guide. Fly lines get a little crinkly as in when they are being figure of eighted on the retrieve. This causes them to have more difficulty in passing through the guides. We don't always get our lines far enougth outside the tip top to run onto the thinner OD running line.

Seriously you would not want to fish and cast with an 8 wt fly rod with size 6 ceramics on. I don't honestly think that anchorage onto the blank of a size 6 7 or 8 is relavant. That would not come into my reckoning in terms of guide size selection.

One of the biggest mistakes made by manufacturers of fly rods in the uk a few years back now was to put on ceramics that were too small. They did it so the rod looked cool and of course they saved a few pennies but the rods cast very poorly and helped ceramics get a bad name.

I will put up with a very slightly slower blank recovery from using appropiate sized guides any day over the frustartion of my line dragging and grinding it's way through a guide that is restricting it's free passage.

Chris I am not having a go here just explaining what I have found out through personal experience. I went maybe too far the other way which is why I am now thinking that maybe I can come back to size 7 for 8 wt's as my running guides.

One last thought there is always a chance that a Fisher may upline by one. Can you honestly imagine trying to cast a no 9 line through size 6 ceramic guides.

I rest my case.

Cheers

Mike Oliver

If you use any of the "change-a-tip" type lines with several tips of varying densities, think twice about using 6s or even 7s in some cases. Some of those connections are quite bulky and no-doubt designed for the rods with "oversized snakes". If you use neat and small needle knots and blood knots for your connections, and switch spools and lines when you go deeper, then this is a non-issue and I would use the 6s or 7s at the largest and deal with any ice the way Chris suggests.

Steve,

Can I be the only rod builder out there that has a problem with size 6 ceramics for a rod designed to throw an 8 wt line and which could on occasions be called upon to throw a 9 wt. Every time a post like this has come up the main issue that most everyone else has focused on is the size of the Knots or connection loops.. Trying to shoot any of the main belly of an 8wt fly through through a size 6 guide is going to be not a lot of fun. In fact I am going to stick my neck out way further and say it would be poor design. Fly lines do get knarly and a bit S shaped if you know what I am trying to descirbe. We can push this weight issue too far and forget other equally important aspects of rod design. One of them has to be free flow of the line down the guides. 8wt rods have enough umph in the blank to support the weight of at least a size 7. I have my own rods built with both 7 and even 8. My lines flies through great. No real problems with blank recovery either.

I can never understand why most will talk positavely about oversize snakes but never apply the same thinking to single leg ceramics. I would go even further and say I don't even consider the term oversize for any guide to be appropiate. The guide is either the right size or not. Perhaps when an oversized snake guide was selected it was becuase the previous one used was too darned small to function properly. Does not say a lot for some manufactureres who boast "oversize snake Guides" on their rods. I don't want oversize I want right size to do the job and no more.

I would be very surprised if there was any consideration by fly line makers of the size of rod guides fitted to mass produced rods out there. If that was the case they would in my view have some duty of care to suggest to potential purchasers to make sure they buy a rod which is furnished with guides of at least "x" size to alow for passage of their connections. I don't think that we see much co-operation on any front between rod makers and fly lines.

Ok soap box kicked away. Nothing personal to you or anyone else. I just wanted to bring a different perspective to this sizing of fly rod yuides.

Regards

Mike O

Mike,

I put "oversized snakes" in quotes because it is not my term and I think the concept is misguided (pun intended). All I can tell you is that I have a rod that is labeled as a 6wt. that has an ERN of almost 9. I built it with #6 ceramics. I have no problem with my DT8-F line or my WF9-F lines hanging up in those guides whatsoever. They shoot very smoothly through those guides.

Cheers and nothing personal taken from your comments.

Steve

Steve,

You mean I just got hot and all airiated for nothing. You have made me laugh( in a positive way) Go on tell us who made that rod marked up a 6 and has an ERN of 9. If the same scale was followed just imagine trying to cast their 12 wt's. LOL

I'm off trout fishing now.

Tight Lines

Mike

PS sure your fly lines are marked up correctly?

A quick question: but first an observation from the Fuji web site, which shows several styles of the alconite guides. They are not telling how they get the measurements.

Does Fuji now call a guide by the **bore**, or still by the OD? I have not kept up, as I bought in tremendous volume some time back, where a 6mm guide measures quite some less than 6 inside....because they measured the 6 from the outer diameter of the ring.

I opted for 8's on my sticks, which gives a fat 5 inside.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2006 11:11AM by Ken Driedger.

I am also looking to build a couple of 8 weight rods (to use a 9 weight floating line occassionaly possibly) for saltwater use. THey will be the strong XMG 50 blanks from Lamiglas but I would like to keep the tips as light as possible. I would like to use small running guides on the rods but am worried about the "ease of flow" for the line, especially since saltwater lines can get a little gummy after a while. Would 8s be the fail safe size, with 7 probably being okay as well and 6s being 'iffy'?

I am having some difficulty coming up with the right solution.

Gregg Osland