I am building a couple rods and I thought that I would go with recoils. What are the pros and cons of FUJI titanium Recoil vs Fuji Titinanium SIC. I appreciate any help.

These guides will be used in simple bumper spiral or casting rod.

Thanks again,
Jeffrey

Recoils are made by REC, not Fuji. They are metal, and the Fujis have ceramic rings, so line will flow smoother and quieter on the Fujis. The REC Recoils are the lightest of the two. Personally I'd use the Fuji Titanium SiC guides. If cost is an issue the AmTak Titans offer titanium frames and Nanolite guide rings for similar performance, excellent corrosion resistance for a better price.

Jeffery,

This is a bit like asking a Fly Fisher if he reels with his left or right hand. You tend to get very polerised opinions of snakes verses single leg ceramics. Fishers I respect an awful lot like snakes me I prefer the ceramics. I think we need to dismiss the old chestnut that ceramics cast further. I think we can be almost catregoric and say they don't providing the right sizes of each type were compared properly on a given guide set. OK why do I like ceramics. Most of my fly fishing is in salt water. Titanium Fuji T-SG guides do not rust. Snakes do rust even plated ones. We have to prep the feet and that takes off the plating. I don't like a design of guide that uses a rod shaft to effect the closure. I don't think in practice that the line does make much contact, but it bothers me. Line can make contact also with single leg ceramics. I like only having one leg to wrap. The weight difference between the two is zip in real rod action terms, so I would discount any arguments here. On the plus side of snakes they do have a better feel to them when castingand especially when shooting line. Ceramics even sic can feel a little unsmooth with some lines. Snakes are as cheap as chips but you may have to replace more often. Ceramics much more expensive but T-SG 's are not desperaetly expensive. If budget was tight in my opinion you are better off putting your money into the blank rather than the guides. I have heard that some Guys say the Recoils are noisy. One last thought snakes are tough. No sic liner to crack. But I have been using sic guides for many years on my fly rods and I swim out to rocks in the sea to fish and get bashed around something silly. Never had one go yet. But it is a consideration. Bet the Guys come up with some more I have not thought of

It's up to you but hard to go wrong whatever you decide. Me I am sticking with my T-SG's until something better comes along.

That's funny. I was just asked about the re-coil guides for some one.
I do prefer the ring guides , for performance. I beleve the rings give longer distance. Maybe on short very light rods, I might use the recoils ?

Bill,

I am going to be contraversal here. Do you have proof that ceramics cast further. I am wandering what tournament casters use on their poker rods? Now let me be honest I have no proof either that they do not. I have cast with both and seen do difference. Good casting skills is what most fly fishermen lack. And in my opinion it is that which determines how far we cast. rather than the guide material.

Just what I have read here. I would go with the majority of people here that would use ceramic rings over metal. It is also said they work better for fly rods, but people still believe in snakes ?? Now you can't tell me the fly line does not slide along the blank with snakes on the back cast ?? Has to slow it down. What are ya going to do, -- wax the blank every cast ? No so in time the line and blank get dirty, cause friction, you back cast, the line slows down. Just MHO

Bill,

In practice I don'think the fly line does touch the blank as much as we imagine. I am not totally convinced that cramics keep the line off the blank on the back cast either. Better casters should do better in this regard but I am speculating a bit here to. Some casters who use snakes when distance casting do what I call the chineese manouvre in that they tilt the rod to one side so that the snake guides catch the line rather than the rod shaft. This supports your point above to a degree. But in day to day casting my money still would be on that there is no noticable difference in distance capability between the two designs. I prefer ceramics and always try to get my customers to consider them seriously but not for reasons of distance. It would be good if some of the other Guys could pile in on this debate.

Mike
Guess it's all personal opinion

Bill,

Yes, trouble is personal opinion can be wrong. That of course includes me. I think with regard to the above it's not that important but I sure would like to know the definative answer myself once and for all. To me snakes are always going to be twisted bits of pr-historic wire often badly plated and if factory preped sharper than a knife yuk.

I agree with Mike 110% Guides have so very little do to with casting distance. The only attribute of a guide that can effect distance to any appreciable degree is the actual weight of the guide, and how it effects the recovery rate of the rod. As for the ring material, you may or may not get an extra couple of feet out of a ceramic at the end of the day. My personal opinion is that folks who claim to be getting an extra 10-20 feet w/ceramics are unconciously casting in such a manner to achieve what they want to prove about the ceramics, which is that they cast further. When in reality it's the caster, not the guide that's controlling the distance. I can tell you that I have REC Recoils on my CTS Affinity S 6wt. and am hitting 105' +/- a few feet fairly regularly when I push it. I seriously doubt that putting ceramics on there is going to push me out to 115' or 120' with no change in casting style or effort.

Ceramics however will give your flyline a much longer life, and you will probably never have to replace them due to grooving.

If you want to cast further, you don't need ceramics to help you, you need to learn to haul more efficiently, stop harder, implement some drift in your stroke, and practice, practice practice.....


Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing products

Grooving ??? For that one reason along I would not use them. Not unless I got a request for them.

He asked about casting rods, not fly rods. Has anybody on this board used the recoil snake guides in a bumper spiral rod yet? I want somebody to tell me they did and it worked great even though the guide was not totally round and is too low. The small single foot spinning guides weight difference with Ti Sic fly guides is nothing, but the recoil snakes are noticeably lighter than Ti Sic flies. They weigh nothing. If weight savings is the primary concern for performance in building a casting or spinning rod, you would have to use recoils every time. If Recoil made their single foot spinning guides higher so they would work well with the New Concept Method, for performance reasons, no other guide could touch them for spinning rods. If Recoil built a full ring fly guide that was the same height as ceramic fly guides, no other guide could come close for spiral rods. Their two leg guides are fine. They definitely weigh less than TiSic casting guides

Josh,
I have been thinking about trying the recoils on a casting rod. I'd love to hear anyone who has tried it.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products

Rec does make a full ring SF fly guides. They are great for casting rods when you dont want to use the DF.
Models RSFX and RSF

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2006 12:18PM by Raymond_Adams.

Hi Josh,

Heck I just checked and it's embarrasing yes casting not fly. So I was not a lot of help at all. In fact high jacked the thread . Appologies to all. For a casting rod I would have a strong personal preference for the Fuji pattern. I don't like wire line guides at all on spinning or casting rods. I would ignore any weight difference as not being that relavant to any aspect of performance here as measured ring size for ring size. bearing in mind we dont' know the rods length or power rating. The Fuji's will be that more durable in terms of line wear and totally rust free. But again if you really like the Recoils there is no earthly reason to not put them on. It's the builders or customeres rod at the end of the day.

Mike O.

I agree that for casting or line shooting the difference is minimal, but one additional consideration I rarely hear mentioned is how much more fun it is to fight a fish on a fly rod that has SIC rings instead of snakes. The feel in your line-tending hand of the fish is much more intense, I presume as a result of the slickness of the ceramic material. You feel every head shake as a tug, even on small fish. It's a completely different feel once that load is applied.

Another consideration is passing knots and strike indicators. When I use long leaders, I must often reel (or strip) my strike indicator through several guides in order to control a fish at my feet. With SIC rings my knots pass far more easily than they ever did through snakes. If I had a dollar for every putty strike indicator that was accidentally removed by a snake guide, I could go buy a new rod...

The Recoil guides are not exactly snakes, so we might want to veer away from that discussion for a moment at least. The Recoils form a loop just like the ring on a ceramic. They're very flexible and extremely hard and long wearing. There is no reason they won't work on a Simple Spiral set up.

The only complaints I've heard about the recoils have more to do with how they look and sound... yes, how they sound when line comes across them under load. Because they look like the old fashioned Aetna Foulproof guides, many consumers see them as a throwback to an outdated design rather than the advancement they actuall represent. And, they emit a different sound with line coming across them than does a ceramic guide in the same situation.

I have used the Fuji SIC's in titanium for many years now and they're a fantastic guide. You can't go wrong with them. But the Recoils certainly offer a sound and workable alternative if you want to try a set.

............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2006 05:34PM by Tom Kirkman.

My two cents about Recoils, the spinning guides do seem a little short. I have worked around that with the thought that if you add the eighth inch or so that ceramic guides have from inside of the guide ring to the outside edge of the guide frame, on top of your Recoil spinning guide that have no ceramic ring, and still use the concept method, the Recoils will work just fine for the setting them up concept style, on lighter spinning rods. I do use a American Tackle ceramic fly top instead of the recoil tip, the small wire double loop Recoil tip top takes a lot of the performance away from the rest of the Recoil guides, to small bend radius with the Recoil Tip, causes friction when fighting a fish or bringing in a lure. I have a guess about the noise issue with recoils, the fly type recoils I could see why they may make noise using Recoils, large line running threw small diameter wire. No issue with the double loop spinning Recoils with lite monofiliment line, for me anyway.

Has anybody used the Recoil roundish single foot fly guides (they really are not a complete ring) on their spinning or spiral casting rods? Please share your results. I am worried that the line will have contact with epoxy/thread wraps while casting, creating friction.

Josh....I think you're correct about the line touching.

Andy Dear
Lamar Fishing Products