Hey guys. Hope all is well. I purchased a SU1266 rainshadow which is a 10'6 2 piece rod to throw 3 ouches and a clam or small bunker chunk. What guides and sizes would you reccomend for this rod? Also I want to put on a trigger seat, what would you reccomend for size and make? Could any one help me out with guide spacing. Thank you so much for all the help.
Sincerely,
Dan Colville

How'bout we just build it for you! LOL!

Seriously Dan,

The answers you seek are hard for one to give you. You will have to measure the blank
at the area you plan to install the seat and order the closest size to that measurement.

I would recommend titanium framed or coated stainless steel framed guides for heavy
salt water use but the sizes depends mostly on reel and line size and knots that you may
plan to wind up onto the rod. The biggest (butt guide) will most likely be a #20 but like I
said, that depends.

Proper spacing is accomplished thru static testing and test casting. ( read the article in the
library here)

On another note:
Posts such as this really gets my goat sometimes. Dan, if you have done some reading and
are just not understanding something then I apologize but it really appears by the questions
or the way you worded them, that you really have not done anything but bought a blank and
frequented this site for a while. I am more than happy to assist in any way I can but people
really have to try and learn for themselves at least the beginning steps it takes to do anything before just jumping in and asking an experienced person to lead them by the hand like a 3yr old. Please, please, think your questions thru a bit before posting so as not to sound like you know absolutely nothing if infact you have some knowlage. If you don't take some time and buy or borrow a book or DVD or something so you will be able to approch the subject correctly.
There are many good articles in the library section of this board and using the search feature
also will deliver a treasure trove of info if it is used.
Too many people think they can just buy a kit and then come to this site or similar and get all
they need to know build it correctly and although I would be happy if that were true it really is not!
People just have to do their homework weather they like it or not!

Ok, off my soap box

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2006 10:55PM by Raymond_Adams.

Thanks Raymond for the response. I go to school full time, build rods, and try to fish so my time is pretty limited. I have been building rods for 18 months now and i would never be to the stage i am without this Forum. I dont expect for someone to build the rod, maybe just help by giving a little advice. If someone were to have built that rod a couple weeks ago, would it be so bad for them to tell me what size seat they used??? If someone built a similiar 10'6 rod a month ago would it be a problem for them to tell me the guide sizes they use.

I am very appreciative of all the knowledge that these builders have shared with me. I hope that one day i can answer a ton of peoples questions. I have only built a few spinning rods and a bunch of float rods so my knowledge in other fields of building is limited. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed so a DVD or a detailed email is really helpful. There has been quite a few guys who have really taken the time to help me and i will never forget it. I hope to return the favor to them someday.

Sorry, to get your goat. I have purchased DVD's, read Tom's book, and spent alot of time speaking with builders. I am no expert builder, but if i could help someone with building i would. I am more of a fisherman then a rod builder. I have spent a ton of time on the water studying fish behaviors and taken countless hours classes learning about fish and wildlife. This was all hard work and if someone didnt spend the time I did, they wouldnt have the knowledge i do. This does not keep me from sharing my techniques or knowledge from people. I guess from now on i will tell people to buy a book or DVD when they ask me how a fish spawn of what they are biting on a particular day.

As always, thank you for your time and your help.
Sincerely,
Dan Colville

Hi again Dan,

Sorry for jumping on the band wagon on top of you but if you take a minute and read your
post as someone who has read Tom's book and has had some experience building a
few rods you will see where I am comming from.

You already know the answers to your questions as asked. Don't you? What I think you were really try to ask was recommendations for a starting point and thats fine. Even a builder who just built on that blank would not be able to answer your questions as asked. He may not have used the same rear grip length as they may have a different arm length and preference. Therefore their seat would be in a different area than your rod and require a different size. Follow? Sure, you can get some opinions on which brand someone likes but the rest is completly dependent on how and what you are wanting to do and without some specific details it's hard to give you suggestions. Try and remember we cant see the rod or read your mind so really think about what you need to know and try and fill in the blanks for us a bit.

You already know how to arrive at a good starting point for guide spacing correct? So I'm guessing you are needing to know how to refine the technique or apply it to a casting rod
as opposed to a spinning rod which is really different. See, you didn't ask so I have to guess.
If you don't understand how to set-up a "guides on top" casting rod then that is what you
should have asked.

Now for some answers, as best as I can without having the details.

1) as for size and brand, I would look at a 20mm Batson or Fuji graphite trigger seat and for
heavy surf fishing I wouldn't go with a "exposed blank" type but that's just me.

2) start with a size #20 ring double foot butt guide and then a size #16 then #12 and 10's the
rest of the way. If your reel is not to high you may be able to start with the #16 instead of the #20.
Get some help if you need it for initial set-up if you haven't built a casting rod before now. A rod
that long can be hard to work with until you get the hang of it.
For a starting point, place your first guide at 4" from the tip and the next guide 4 1/2" from the first
and the next at 5 1/2" then 6" then 7, 8 1/2, 9 1/2 and so on till they are all placed. Now this is by no means written in stone juist a place to start.

Please feel free to email me anytime. OK?



Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Dan, First you have to decide if you are going to use a conventional reel, or a spinning reel. If it is a spinning reel, what size, and what type of line, either braid, or mono.. If it's braid, then a spinning reel in the Daiwa 3500 class will hold approx. 300 yds of 20 lb. braid. With this setup, your stripper guide could be as small as a size 20, or even a 16. To do the guide layout go to the Fuji site,

[www.anglersresource.net]

and look at the different guide setups. Normally using braid, you would try and use Fuji New Concept Low Riders, but I have expirimented with other guides that cost a fraction of the price. Here is a post of mine off the Florida surf Fishing Board

#28262, "RE: Fuji Lowriders & Reel Angles, Too"
In response to Reply # 12

"If you are using braid, and you cannot get the Fuji Low Riders you want, try a double foot guide of the same size that you are going to use, reverse the choke guide as per Fuji information and set them in the same measurements as you would with the Low Riders. It works, I have a rod that proves that point. I used Pac Bay Hialoys BCVG 20, BCVG 16, and single foot BSFG 12, and a BSFG 10. These 4 guides cost me a little over $5.00.

And don't forget to use Tom's picture in his book, of lining up the reel with the rod for the placement of the first guide

Hey Dan,

Have you considered using the Bumper Wrap setup for your convenional surf rod? If yo are not familiar with it just run a SEARCH for Bumper Wrap in the Forum. You lay out the guides for optimum stress distribution and then move all to the bottom of the rod except for the first (Butt) Guide. Then, wrap a low footed guide exactly half way between the Butt Guide and the next guide; on the 90 or 270 degree axis. Most choose to place this extra or "Bumper Guide" on the same side as the reel handle. This allows the rod and reel to lay flat.

The benefits of this arrangement will become immediately apparent when you compare it with a standard conventional rod and reel. It is far more stable in our hand as it reduces the torque that a fish can exert when running left or right. The weight of the reel sitting on the zero axis is always inclined to roll over. With this method the more pressure applied to the rod the more stable the rod becomes in your hands. The force pulling your rod tip down keeps the reel steady sitting on top.

It is rare to see a thumb grip on a conventional surf rod. I am not saying it shouldn't be used; just cautioning you to try it before making it permanent.

As for guide sizes; be sure to leave sufficient clearance for the foregrip and your hand under the line.

I would also suggest Alconite Guides as the low end option and moving up to titanium coated SS guides if the budget permits.
If you can afford SIC rings they will provide the best long term service. I have found the American Tackle TiN guides to be a nice compromise for performance and looks at a reasonable price. But the Fuji Alconites will do the job.

I like to place the reel so that it tightens down... with the nut toward the tip. It is much more comfortable if you hand is not in contact with the threaded barrel.

Most conventional Surf Rods are built with the reel seat a bit farther forward than on a Surf Spinning Rod. Seat placement is a personal matter and this is one decision that is worth lots of test casting before making a decision.

Have you decided on the type of grips you will be using? Split grips will save weight; which is a nice bonus. If you plan use a Sand S[pike remember to protect the blank where it makes contact with the Spike.

Since you seem sufficiently hooked by Rod Building you owe it to yourself to subscribe to RodMaker Magazine. As helpful as the Forum is, the magazine is the true source of thorough information. What you see here is discussion of things that were often comprehensively covered in RodMaker. Go to the source. Build up a library of the informative issues and read them over and over. There is nothing in the rod building galaxy to compare to what is available between the covers of that fine publication.
Get on board now and your knowledge will flourish. I am still befuddled by how few participants of this Forum actually subscribe to RodMaker.

If everyone here was a regular reader of RodMaker this site would be far greater than it already is.

I wish you well with this projact and your future in rod building. Remember; school comes first; but rodbuilding will be good to you for the rest of your life.

Dave

Ray? ... What's up? ... Was Monday a bad day in Sacramento, California? ...

Maybe the fact that the UCLA Bruins were ~10 points behind the Florida Gators in the NCAA Men’s Basketball Championship at the time he wrote to you had something to do with it. Now that the Florida Gators have WON the Championship 73 – 57, I am in a very good mood. And so is the rest of Gainesville, Florida right now. So, I’ll see if I can give you some useful advice.

The PROCESS that I will go thru with you is actually more important than the DETAILS that I am going to include. There are literally a thousand little details and decisions and steps and things to do and things to think about to complete a rod-building project. I will do my best to only hit the highlights. LOL. Later you can re-Post to clear up other details.

I will suggest values in the math for this rod project based on the assumption of a very middle of the road set-up for your RainShadow SU-126-6 (10’6”) surf-casting rod, and assume that you will build it as a Spiral-wrapped “Bumper” rod.

On future rod projects, you can use an approach like this to estimate the size of the rod components you will need, even before you have the rod blank in hand. Every rod-builder does things differently, so just keep that in mind. And try to develop a system that works based on your preferences. Selecting the rod blank is the single most important decision, so you got that part covered. Integrating the details and making sure everything is compatible & co-operating, … yeah, Dan, it is not your imagination, that is the tricky part.


ROD SPECIFICATIONS: RainShadow RX7 Graphite SU-126-6-F

SU-126-6-F: … Matte Clear … 10'6" … 2-piece …
12-25lb. … 2-5oz. … 0.845” … 7.5 / 64ths …
Mod-Fast … Med-Hvy … n/a … $75.79 … Add

RainShadow Surf Blanks (SU) - [fishsticks4u.com]
RX7 Intermediate Modulus (43 million), high strain rate graphite


HANDLE DIMENSIONS:
Butt Cap length: ~ 2 inches long.
Rear Grip length: ~ 18 inches long
Reel Seat length: ~ 5 inches long
Fore Grip length: ~ 6 inches long
Reel Spool: ~ 24 inches from the rod’s end.
Spool to Rod Tip: ~102 inches from Spool to Rod Tip
RSP = Reel Seat Position from the Butt End = 20”
LOA = Length Over-All of the Rod Blank = 126”


REEL SEAT ESTIMATIONS: Several different ways to approach this sizing.

One method is to use the Rod’s Butt End OD to select the next largest Reel Seat Size-mm. An OD = 0.845” = (0.845 x 25.4) = 21.5 mm. … Choose a Size 22 mm ID Reel Seat.

Another method is Direct Measurement. Since you have the rod blank, use calipers to measure the rod blank’s OD at ~20 inches from the butt end. Or wrap a strip of paper around the rod blank, to measure the circumference. (Circumference / 3.14) = Rod OD. To CONVERT: (Thousands of an Inch) x (25.4 mm / inch) = ___.__ Millimeters (mm).

Another method for estimation of Blank OD is the TAPER Reduction Calculation.
ROD BLANK OD = (BUTT OD) – [ (RSP / LOA) x [(BUTT OD) – (TIP OD)] ]
ROD BLANK OD = (0.845”) – [ (20” / 126”) x [(0.845”) – (0.117”)] ]
ROD BLANK OD = 0.845” – [ (0.1587) x [(0.728”)] ]
ROD BLANK OD = 0.845” – [ (0.116”) ]
ROD BLANK OD = 0.729” = 18.5 millimeters
Next Largest Size Reel Seat (greater than ID = 18.5 mm) = 20 mm Size.
So the REEL SEAT SIZE can be no less than 20 mm, and may be over 22 mm.
There are few Trigger Reel Seats in Size 20 mm or greater.


SUGGESTIONS for GUIDE LAYOUT
Spool to Rod Tip: ~102 inches
Spool to Butt Guide: ~ 22 inches
Butt Guide to Rod Tip: ~ 80 inches

SUGGESTIONS for GUIDE LAYOUT

Butt Guide at 0 deg: 20mm – 16mm ForeCast BVDLG
Tri-Leg, Double-Foot, Medium-Height Guide

Bumper Guide at 90 deg: 12mm – 8mm ForeCast BUDLG
Tri-Leg, Double-Foot, LOW-Height Guide.
Size to match your smallest Running Guides.

Gateway Guide at 180 deg: 16mm – 12mm ForeCast BVDLG
Tri-Leg, Double-Foot, V-frame, Medium-Height Guide

Running Guides at 180 deg: 12mm – 8mm ForeCast BVSLG
Bi-Leg, Single-Foot, V-frame, Medium-Height Guide.
Size to pass line knots or swivels.

Space these guides about every 5-6 inches near the tip
and progressively increase the spacing to about
every 6-8 inches toward the Gateway guide.

Possible Location for the above Guide Sizes & Styles: 12 Guides + Bumper + TT
80”, 74”(Bumper), 68”, 60”, 52”, 45”, 38”, 32”, 26”, 20”, 15”, 10”, 5”, [0” = TT].


Dan, I do not expect this guide placement to be anything more than a good starting point. You will have the rod & the guides right there in front of you. See what looks good to you. Yes, Dan, you’ll have to do a Casting Test to see if the Butt Guide placement works well. Yes, you’ll most definitely have to do a Loading Test to check the other guide placement. But Dan, this will give you a good starting point for working out these design decisions.


As far as shopping for your rod components, let me suggest www.FishSticks4U.com. FS4U (Robert Tignor & Co.) is a FULL-LINE Batson Dealer. They have a great selection of BATSON’s ForeCast Components [Line Guides, Reel Seats, Grips, etc and Gudebrod Thread, and U-40 Products (Rod-Bond and LS Supreme)] to complete the project. At prices, and with service, that will make you glad you ordered from them.

Good Luck, Dan Colville. … -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2006 07:07PM by Cliff Hall.

Cliff,

@#$%& wher you get the time for all this wonderful technically detailed stuff. Are you wagging from your job , collage, or just life in general. Great stuff, but at this stage in our fellow builders career .don't you think he may be better off keeping it simple and sticking with a conventional guide set up. Leave the spiral/ bumper stuff until a little later. Heck that's a great price for a surf spinning blank. Cheap as chips.

Hi Cliff,
No, Monday was just a normal day but I guess I should have followed my own advise that I gave
to another regular ( Billy V.) here last year and took a CHILL PILL!

One of the most enjoyable things about this forum is how friendly people here are. Jumping on
Dan like that wasn't very nice and I sent him an email expressing my apologies.

I do get a bit perturbed by ignorence, but hey, who am I to judge. Besides, Dan is not ignorent he just didn't communicate well. ( a problem I have myself sometimes ) Should have thought twice!

Sorry Dan

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2006 10:17AM by Raymond_Adams.

I would add that the Simple Spiral Bumper wrap was designed to be just as simple as a regular conventional guides on top set up. If you can do one, you can do the other.

More and more guys are trying spiral wraps on their conventional surf fishing outfits and finding that it offers the same benefits on those rods as it does on lighter freshwater bass or any type live bait rod. If you're going to be doing some test casting anyway, I'd be inclined to give this a try as well.

...............

Heh, Ray,

Niceone, Nice trait to be big enough to apologise. I get wound up by some of the stuff I see on the Forum to. I know some of my replies must sem a bit edgy at times. I share the same frustration as the Guy who has the problem and it shows sometimes. We are all human. No harm done me thinks.

Nothing to do with this post but I often wonder if some questions get asked just for the sake of it. I remember one poster putting up a question on another rod building site. I and a few other guys gave very detailed replies which took a lot of our collective time. Hang me a few days later if I did not see the same post somwhere else. I lost it big time and explained how I thought it was unreasonable to expect other unknowing contributors to make replies when it had already being done. Posters like this have no respect for other peoples time. Time is what life is constructed from and to squanders others people time like that lit the blue touch paper for me. Unlike yourself I did not retract as I felt for once I may have been right.


I find that I can only visit Tom's site every now and then becuase I do get wound up at times. And it is not right or fair that I errouniusly take out my vent on others.

Tight Lines Ray

mike O.

Thanks alot guys. I really cant thank you enough for taking the time to help. If anyone ever wants to know about float rods or steelhead fishing I would be happy to help. 20 different guys have 20 different ways of doing things, so i really appreciate each and every response.
As far as your post Ray, I accept your apology. I have read Tom's book and watched a few DVD's. When you read a few hundred pages a week of school books, you dont remember every detail from other readings. Thank you for taking the time to help me create this rod.
This rod will be sweet when finished. I will definately do some more research and if i get some time, i will go back to Tom's book which I havent read in over a year. Hope every one has a good day.
Sincerely,
Dan Colville

Dan Colville - Regarding the FERRULE & my suggestions for Guide Placement.:
Possible Location for the above Guide Sizes & Styles: 12 Guides + Bumper + TT
80”, 74”(Bumper), 68”, 60”, 52”, 45”, 38”, 32”, 26”, 20”, 15”, 10”, 5”, [0” = TT].

This RainShadow SU-126-6-F is a 2-PIECE rod (-F), and I am not sure exactly where the ferrule occurs. I am assuming that the ferrule occurs near the rod's mid-point (126" / 2 = 63"), and that would put the ferrule between the guides at 60" and 68", according to my layout scheme above. Keep that in mind and use your other rod-building experiences with ferruled rods to help you decide how to position your guides relative to that ferrule.

Technically the greatest stress or bending of the rod blank occurs at nearly the MID-POINT between any two guides, adjacent or otherwise.

But, If the distance between two ADJACENT guides is relatively SHORT, then there will not be very much bending or stress placed on the MID-POINT segment as the rod is flexed. So it can be safe to position the guides symmetrically about a good ferrule that is located between 2 guides.

Placing a guide close to the ferrule is also good, because the rod flexes in less of an arc over that segment. However, the force of the line load does get directly transferred to the rod at or very near the ferrule at that point. ... That's the trade-off.

In engineering (mechanics, statics, dynamics, kinetics, energy balances, etc), and economics and (time-)management, there are no benefits without a cost. ... It's more like which ONE of the free lunches do you want to choose, because you can't eat them all.

Good Luck, -Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2006 07:16PM by Cliff Hall.