Does anyone know if Gudebrod changed the formula of there 811. i just recievied a new bottle and it is much thinner than the last bottles i have had and seems to penatrate more but not retain the color as well. I looked on there web site but i could not find any reference to it at all. Thanks

If it's thinner, you have less actual color preserving "solids" in there and this is why it won't retain color as well. There is a happy medium in there, but I rarely get a bottle that hits that medium.

As good as it is, the 811 is very inconsistent in viscosity. Remember, Gudebrod doesn't make it, they just source it and often can't really help you with these type problems. It is a shame, as the 811 is the only acrylic/urethane CP on the market that I'm aware of.

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I had some really good results with 811, but then some bad. As Tom says it works less well when it penetrates more. Counter-intuitive.

Not so much when it penetrates more, but when you have more solids to work with. The thinner the product, the less sealing that is going to take place. That's because all you're doing is putting water on the threads. And water will not seal them. This is one of the major flaws with the idea that thinning color preserver is going to help because it will penetrate better. Water may penetrate better, but it evaporates and leaves nothing behind to seal the threads with.

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Tom

If you get a bottle of 811 like this am I over simplifying things by suggesting that you just put on more coats? I guess only experience of using the stuff is going to guide you.

I think people need to spend more time testing out CP & Epoxy, and that will reduce the number of problems they have.

I think 811 with Denatured, and only use 1 coat. I haven't had many, if any problems with blotching since I sat down and figured out what I was doing wrong. There's a TON of info in teh Archives here.

How much do I thin it? I thin it to teh point where I know the threads will not blotch or lost their color, and there won't be excess which cause a haze/crystals or whateer you want to call it on teh surface of teh threads.

Some people thin it, use 3 coats, 2 coats - whatever they determine WORKS FOR THEM.

Billy,

I would agree, but with the caveat that if a company is selling a product to do a job it should do it straight out of the tin providing the instructions with it are followed. I don't often disagree with Tom but just becuase you buy a product from a third party does not obsolve you from the responsibility of selling a fit for purpose product to your customers. If you can't get your supplier to produce a consistant saleable prodcut then you change in my view or withdraw from sale. If the product is by it's nature unstable that's ok providing you sell it as such and with suggested fixes.
I would not be too chuffed if I used a CP and then had serious problems with the colour of my wraps. Look at all the added value I have put into my rod only for it to be screwed up by a CP. A CP should do what it is designed to do and should not need any modification by us at all. I don't use CP. I intend to but is it worth it the number of problems I read about. Apart from not carrying enough solids I am concerned about the haze and the crstyal effect you mention. I have seen CP'd rods which have a milky like deposit appear on the threads after time. CP not just yet for me. Makers get it right please you take our money so we should expect a quality product.

My take on this.

Mike O

I think the major problem with CP's is shelf life. The longer it sits on a shelf, the longer you keep it open while applying to wraps - the more the alcohol evaporates, the thicker it gets. With Water based, it is temp based - if it freezes, it's useless.

I agree there haev been a lot of negative posts on CP's, but I also think there are a lot of us using it who haev overcome those problems and use it without any problems. Unless somoene comes out with a "magic" CP, people are goign to have to do some CP testing before they figure out their best method to get perfect results every time.

I am anxiously awaiting Andy Dear's new CP. If it is as good as his Threadmaster, it will be the answer to our CP problems.
I too have problems sometimes with 811. After awhile, you sorta develop a feel about it's consistency, and sometimes I do thin it a bit.

I have never had any problem with the thicker 811. I thinned it 5 to 1 with denatured alcohol, put on two coats, then the finish with no problem but now i afraid to put on the finish because i don't know what it is giong to look like when done.

You guys may want to try Areo Gloss for a CP. It will keep the color, period. Can be found at most hobby shops.
Be careful, it is some "hot" stuff. But works.

Tight lines ~ ~

Another MAJOR problem with CP is it gets blamed for problems which are not it's fault. The main one is people not packing threads as tightly together as thay think they are. Also regardless of what people think, CP and even NCP thread will change colors depending on what color is underneath. It won't be drastic, but it's noticeable. I NEVER use NCP thread, but I was doing Demo's Saturday and on a white PVC with black lettering I wrapped some Yellow, Orange & Red NCP "C" & "D" threads. Wiped some excess Permaglos on it, and the black lettering was legible underneath the NCP thread.

That me be an avenue to explore(letering before the wrap)

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Oh LOL, Billy I thought the "teh" was your "trademark" , now I see the "haev". Have you "copyrighted" that too.

As per CP. I like to use the American Takle CP for the first coat because it is "loaded" with surfactants that lower the surface tension, thus getting better penitration of the thread. I then apply a second coat of CP using the Gudebrod product because it "sets up" on top of the thread better. I still see a slight "darking" effect when I apply anybodies CP.

This is my personal opinion for whatever it is worth.

Ed Smith

Old Fishermen never die-They just keep pluging away

Billy,

Take your point "" unti we have a magical CP "" then we got to suss the stuff out. Words to that effect anyway. My position reamins unchanged mostly except ok if CP products are very difficult to make and in useage need for us to play around with them I can even accept that. What I can't accept are the facst that the makers should own up to this and offer possoible solutions for us to try along the way. Now you and I been building rods for a while I guess. We know not everything is clear cut. But heck the new Guy he does not know some of these quirky things and they have a right if they buy something to do a job that it darned well does.

I have never liked CP. OK I know that NCP thread is not everyones cup of tea but I can seal it up with one wet coat of std polyurethene varnish , and then apply my Flex coat. No bubbles no CP to go wrong, no need for flames throwers or hair driers and all that stuff. I like the snap you get with natural thread that has been CP 'd if all goes well. I just can't afford for it not to go well. Too much time tied up in the job.. As for natural thread with no CP applied it mostly to me looks pretty awful irrespective of colour shade of thread.

For Newbie builders my suggestion would be for your first 5 or 6 rods use NCP and then play around with CP . But play around you will have to do by the looks of recent posts re-inforced by your comments Billy. It is vital that you get to fully understand your chosen CP.

I am going to get some of this 811 stuff difficult over here as Airlines don't like to carry it. and give it a whirl. You got be interested now.
To CP makers I would say send a destruction sheet with your product with potential probs and the required fixes. If you won't do that then don't sell it.

No Billy I am not int Anarchy just fair play.

Ok just climbing down now from my high horse.

Cheers

Mike O.

Mike, it's not only CP we have ot adjust to and learn how to use, it's epoxy. For 30 years ALL epoxies turned brown when exposed to sunlight. They cracked, had short pot life, etc. Only within the past couple of years do we have epoxies which pretty much stay clear in sunlight, are extremely flexible, longer pot life - and yet people still have problems with each one - lumpy, bubbles, too thin, too thick, too long to set up - we have to learn how to use each product properly, or we'll never have the results we are looking for.

Billy,

@#$%& we are trying to sort out CP and you now bring in epoxies. You deliberataly trying to do my head in today. LOL. Yes Finishes of the epoxy types sure had their early day problems, but the current crop are truly excellent. I don't think we can lay any blame at all for most of the screw ups you read on the posts at the door of the finish makers. It is almost 100% Builder error. Modern finishing epoxies are so easy to use I just can't understand all the problems you see on the forum. Ok I don't quite follow all,of Flex coats instructions as I feel if I followed them to the letter it would eat up too much into the open working time. But I bet if I did follow them to the letter I would get a great job done still.. Hats off to the chemist who designed this stuff. Now CP is another matter it would seem. It looks to me to be inconsistant and as you point out you have eveaporation issues and you just have to know how to manage that.

No Billy Epoxy finishes are a piece of cake if you chew on it properly. It is undeniably a produceable product that in the main works as it should straight out of the box.

I hear your message and I hope others read it here to that we got to learn to take responsibility to learn all we can about the products we use if we are to be succesful in applying them to the best effect. It makes life interesting if frustrating at times.

Cheers Mate

Mike