Is there a guide placing formula for rods, esspecially for fly rods? I know several charts and emphiric formulas but I'm interested in a scientific one, using the bend curvature of the rod under maximal () stress, if exists one. I'll be interested to hear also theories if you have.
Thanks very much,
Caro

I don't think you could ever come up with a formula to place guides since blanks that are supposed to be the same are really never exactly the same. The static guide placement is the best way I feel for locating the guides for that particular blank. It seems so many people want to find some magical formula that will locate the guides, but I don't think that will ever happen.

"Guides & guide spacing are a lot like religion. Some folks like it this way, some folks like it that way, almost everybody has at least a little, some have way too much, and a few have none at all. By starting a discussion on guides, anyone's strongly held position is likely to violate the fundamental beliefs of at least three other sects. Trying to determine truth in matters of faith will lead to mayhem and bloodshed. However, if we could all drop our guard for a day, admit that we are first and foremost devotees of the List, then we could have a nice ecumenical discussion on guides before reconvening later armed for battle." -Russ Gooding

“Guide Religion” from the BRMC Forum - [www.BambooRodMaking.Com]. It was written by Russ Gooding of Golden Witch . com sometime ago. You can see the entire article entitled “Guide Placement” for yourself at this link. [www.BambooRodMaking.Com]

That's about as scientific as it gets, IMO. The rest is based on quasi-science, personal preference, personality cults, folk-lore and self-delusion. It took me over a year of very strenuous wrestling with this process myself to finally feel comfortable with this conclusion, ... so maybe this humourous approach will save you a few hours of unadulterated frustration.

Having said that, you should consider a synergistic and interwoven cooperation of the following methods for determining line guide spacing on a rod:
Casting Tests
Load Distribution Tests
Equal Intervals / Equal Angles near the rod tip

Since this is FLY rod, and not a spinning rod, or a casting rod, or a spiral rod, I'll skip the mention of several other methods that would be relevant for them, but not for fly rods. ... WHATEVER methods you use, always integrate the guide layout with the rest of the rod design, and remember that each spacing method has its limits and best applications.

-Cliff Hall+++, Gainesville, FL-USA*****

When it was said and done, wouldn't you have the same thing as the static guide placement without you using the eyeballs you were given for free. Seems you'd have to bend each individual rod to get some info to put in your formula, it would be a very complex formula, get the results and than measure them out on the blank. Sounds like the same approach of making the line follow the blank curve under load, just coming from a different, more complex direction.
As my old man says, " same thing, only different."

Ah . . the static test . . . . my favorite subject:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Can someone tell me in degrees, at what point does a "good line angle" become a "bad line angle"? Is a 175 degree angle too sharp or just right? What about 170 degrees or 165 degrees. What's acceptable? And how do you flex 1/4 or 1/2 of the blank in stages and make sure it's not actually a 1/5, 1/3 or 5/8 of the blank instead?

I think that Guide spacing is the single biggest advantage of a custom rod over a factory rod. If I were to use a chart or formula, I would be throwing away what I consider to be my biggest selling point. No chart or formula can take in to account the reel that the user will be using or the fact that, Like Mike said, "since blanks that are supposed to be the same are really never exactly the same"
I realize that this may be getting a little off the question but I see what I feel is a disturbing trend among builders! In many instances, Craftsmanship is slowly being replaced by speed and uniformity (time is money) and equating everything to :"Profit per hour" This is in no way intended to disparage Caro's question but I just finished some repair work on a rod built by a "custom" builder who cranks out rods that don't hold a candle to any $49 rod that can be purchased off the shelf at any discount retailer, although he gets several times that price!! Every "custom" rod out there like that is going to come back and haunt everyone of us sooner or later. I really get sick of having to hear from people that Custom rods are a rip-off when they have the proof in their hands!!

We all talk about the quality of "cheap" factory rods, but we need to get off our duffs and take a good look at some of the "junk" on the shelves. There are actually some surprisingly quality rods available for $50-$60 bucks out there!! All we have to sell is our craftsmanship

Off my soapbox now!!!!!!

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Good start is a spacing from St Croix - maybe plus one. Then check this for final placement - [www.rodbuilding.org]

Also hold the rod as if you are going to grap the line to strip in, elbo at you side, go for the line, about an inch farther up the rod where you hand touches it, is a good starting place for the stripper guide.

Mike,You must be talking about the custom rods that are displayed in a rack.walk in pick one and walk out with it.Yes it is hand made locally but if it is produced to a spec of guide placement then the factory rod will be as good.Problem is a lot of folks feel a custom rod is one they got to match the color of their boat not the reel and type of fishing.That is why I got into building rods,The top notch factory rods were too expensive and the custom rods were not really custom.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Caro Disic: Here's an attempt to return to your original questions and offer some guidelines a little closer to a practical answer.

Butt Guide: 20-12mm ring size. Position based on your stripping style & body proportions.
2nd Guide: 12-8mm ring size, depending on your stripper guide’s size.
Tip Guides: 10-6mm ring size. Single-foot FLY guides or equivalent snake guides. The 3 guides nearest the rod tip may be spaced like 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 (etc) inches from the rod tip. It all depends on the rod’s action, power, length and the guides you select.

Here's where you get to exercise your understanding and judgment. Chances are, if you trust your trained eye, you will develop a pretty good guide layout on your own. Just don't etch it in stone until you have thought about it for at least a few minutes after you are done.

-Cliff Hall+++

Caro,

There are web sites that have mathematically-generated guide placement. Have a look at [www.uwm.edu] By the way, when I finish spacing the guides, I plot the distances on graph paper. Since all rods bend along some curve, it's easy to see if one or more guides is out of place (the line on the graph isn't smooth).

Jim

Fred, I'm talking about rods that were sold directly by a "custom" rod builder from is shop/house. There are a lot more custom rod assemblers out there than true custom builders, IMO

Mike

GUIDE SPACING FORMULAS – How & Why They DO & DON'T Work
Cliff Hall ... Over 640 VIEWS ... 26 REPLIES ... 10-20-05 ... 05:44
[www.rodbuilding.org]

I have a problem with all of the guide spacing charts and formulas that I have seen including the ones in the posts above. The problem is in addition to the varying characteristics of individual blanks. All of the charts and formulas that I have seen are based upon the length of the rod and do not take into consideration the length of the handle. The guide number and spacing should be a function of the distance from the reel seat to the end of the blank which can vary a lot depending upon the length of the handle. This may not vary much with fly rods but with some casting rods it can vary a great deal. Some casting rods can have handles that go from 8 or 10 inches to 16 or 17 or 18 inches or even longer. This means that there can be a foot or more of difference between the length of the rod from the reel seat to the tip of the rod. In my judgment this distance from the reel seat to the tip of the rod should determine the number and position of the guides not the total length of the rod. The total length of the blank for many casting rods is almost irrelevant but that is what all of the formulas and charts seem to be based upon.

Emory, that's the best point yet!!!!!!

Mike

I very much agree with Emory, and will add one more item to consider - you need to consider the size of the reel along with all the other variables. Charts and formulas don't do this and is why interactive spacing and sizing systems remain superior to any formula.

...........

Yes, the size of the reel, both the width and height, will affect to some degree the position, size and the type of guides particularly the first guide.

Tom,
We are agreeing too much. We have to find something to argue about.

Ronnie wrote: "I attach the guides with electrical tape."

Doesn't ELECTRICAL tape leave a gummy residue on the guide feet and the rod blank ? ... Whatever, if it works, ... but just make sure a residue doesn't remain. An adhesive residue is certainly not the end of the world, but it is avoidable. 3M brand of masking tape leaves no residue. Cheapo import brands may not be so reliable. -Cliff Hall+++