Would someone please pony up with reasons why it would be a bad idea to turn a roller tip top upside down and use it on a spiral wrapped rod using boat guides. I am planning on useing the Amtak titanium frame guides on the rod.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2006 02:34PM by Bill Stevens.

Hi Bill,

The only tops I've seen that work "upside down" are the All American @#$%&. The line passes between the blank & the roller, rather than between the roller & the frame like a standard roller top.

I've done several using @#$%& tops & ring guides and they work awesome. My Son Mike's going to play around this Spring with a roller stripper/ring guide/roller top set up.

We stock the @#$%& tops from size #10-#14, but can get other sizes made with a little lead time. AA (All American) has a link to the left and are some of the nicest people in the business. If you need something other than a "standard" size, they'll work with you.

Mark Griffin
[]
C&M Custom Tackle
San Dimas, California

The reason it WON'T work is that your line will be under the roller and settle in the 'saddle' that is intended to be at the top of a standard roller guide. Take a spare blank, slide a roller tip on (it doesn't even have to fit), and string your line up. You'll see exactly why it won't work.

Like Mark said, get an All American top and have no worries.

Jay

Thanks - board works - I am now headed in the right direction on the roller tip. Does anyone have comment on the AMTAK titanium frame boat guides for spiral wrapping the class 50 stand up. Have they proved to be successful and does it look like they will last when placed in charter service. When these guys get in they do not wash down stuff and the salt water plays havoc with chloride stress corrosion cracking of the frame in the highly stressed guide ring area. I want to get away from 304 austenitic stainless steel frames.

Q: What is "304 'AUSTENITIC' Stainless Steel frames." ... ?

I have heard of "SS304 Stainless Steel" metal used for guide frames (ex: Batson ForeCast), but not "austenitic" ... do you mean "AUTHENTIC?" ... Thanks for the enlightenment, ... -Cliff Hall+++

In this instance there is no spelling error and I "meant" exactly what I wrote. No enlightenment, just a metallurgical term used to identify the class of stainless steel involved. This metal in its passive form is quite resistant to oxidation reduction type corrosion mechanisms. All stainless steels in the 300 series are austenitic. The 321 is a free machining version and all 300 series have certain properties. The 304 guide frames will not rust when passivated. The most prevalent failure mode for passivated austenitic stainless steels such as 304, when under stress, is chloride stress corrosion cracking which causes the metal to fail by intergranular cracking. Maybe you should check all this out and add it to your comments on titanium "alloy" corrosion resistance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2006 03:37PM by Bill Stevens.

Cliff,
Bill has been doing his homework. See the following:

austenite


aus·ten·ite


noun
Definitions:

carbon-iron component of steel: a solid solution of carbon in iron that occurs as a component of steel at a specific stage of manufacture

[Early 20th century. After Sir William Roberts-Austen (1843-1902), British metallurgist]

aus·ten·it·icadj


Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

William,
I too thought about spiral wrapping an 80 lb. rod but changed my mind. Would I really need too if I am using a belt and gimble?

Ellis, you would certainly benefit from sprialing any rod you build even those with gimbals. People always tell me that when using a gimbal you don't need to worry about rod torque. My response to those people is, "You've never fished heavy stand-up with REAL drag pressures have you?"

For example, I own a 4'8" Braid PowerPlay 100-130# stand-up rod that I have fitted with a Tiagra 80W. I have fished both 130# and 100# line on that rod. Max strike drag that I've ever set it up with has been 45# (which by the way is a bit much for me...I prefer to stay under 40# when on the button; hence the 100# that it is set up with at the present). This is one powerful rod that is capable of handling more drag than I care to give it. When loading the rod, and I mean SERIOUSLY loading the rod, all is well as long as you keep the line at a fairly straight angle and somewhat centered to the rod. When the line goes off to one side, such as when a fish makes lateral movement, the rod tip WILL roll over just like with any other conventional guides-on-top rod. The only problem is...if you remember...you are 'locked' together with the rod via the gimbal. When a rod this heavy, with drag pressures this heavy, decides to flip flop over to one side you WILL be going with it! I have been thrown to the cockpit floor at least once because of a combination of heavy seas and the rod tip falling off to one side. This certainly CAN happen. The spiral wrap will definately benefit this type of rod...REGUARDLESS what the nay-sayers might profess.

I can tell you, my 4'8" @#$%& roller rod doesn't experience this phenomenon.

Jay

If you have stood in the back of a boat with someone trying desperately, with a stand up, to move a 200 lb yellowfin homeward the value of a spiral becomes quickly evident. On a conventional rod much of the effort is expended in trying to hold the rod upright even with a good harness system. I guess only wimps fish on my boat because I can only get away with approximately 30 - 32 lbs of drag - I would love to see someone who could handle 45 lbs - must be some kind of gorilla! One real value of the higher drag setting is to be able to defeat the fish and get it to the boat before the fish is completely exhausted. The quality of the meat will be a lot higher and I personally think the blood line occupies less volume. At my age the only three words I tell someone when one of these brutes is on the line is "Here Hold This"!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2006 10:06PM by Bill Stevens.

Bill, I actually think that the smaller you are the better you can handle the heavy stuff. Dennis Braid is a fairly diminutive fellow. He's probably 5'5" - 5'7" and certainly no more than 160#? He'll fish 60-65# drag settings stand-up. Like you, I am much more comfortable with 30-35#.

Jay

Bill,
I don't think the guides have been "out in service" long enough to correctly answer your original question. Perhaps Joe or Chase from American Tackle will pick up on your question and be able to provide information on the testing that was done in advance of the release.
Ken

Bill
Been there tried it, it don't work. Get the @#$%& top. And spiral wrap it.

I would like to try the Titan Turbos on a heavy stand-up spiral (50-80#). Not sure if I'd do the turbos all the way or switch out to their NIC casting guides for the bulk of the 180s. Like a 20 & 12 turbo (with the 12 being a 180 via the simple spiral method) and the rest 10 NIC casting guides. Might even 'try' a 10 NIF fly guide for the bumper...maybe, if I was brave enough and decided to forgo the 80# and stick with a 50-60# rod.

Heck I don't know...too many choices!

Jay

Jay - that choice thingy is also my main problem - too much - too many - no real track record for change - don't want to stay stuck in the mud - wanna better rod - hate corrosion - can't trust owners to fresh water rinse - don't want it coming back - only real conviction is no pink thread!

Fsh No Mo!

Bill,
I'll have to post a photo of rod I'm just finishing up. Grey DNY blank that I had here, one of Jesse's cast foregrips with a catfish in it, grey grips with pink inlays, pink EVA against a PacBay TiCH channel lock reel seat - and silver/pink wraps on American Tackle gunsmoke/black ring guides. You do what you gotta do for a customer -- and it actually looks nice.

How come you don't like pink ?? Seen that customers rod I got on the photo page -- the pink one ?? It's not my rod !!

bill boe - I saw the pink one you had on the photo page and the post was not a personal slam in your direction. I too am forced to build for the other side and use pink as well - see

[www.rodbuilding.org]

The only problem is when I use pink thread I have horrible nightmares for about a week!

I did not take it that way Bill. Ain't got enough pink on your's. Need a pink seat, blank, pink ring in the handle and a pink end cap. I'm having dreams about pink ??!! LOL

Bill Stevens & Stan Grace – “ShaZAM!” … Thank you both for the education and the side bar on Metallurgy and Austenitic Stainless Steel. -Cliff Hall+++

One spelling error that has persisted in this Thread is that
the ‘"IFGA" Class 50# Stand-Up’ should be the "IGFA " –

“IGFA” = International Game Fish Association –
Detailed historical information on the organization,
our founders and the sport of fishing.
www.igfa.org

“IFGA” = International Fancy Guppy Association
Articles, schedule of shows, and IFGA information.
www.ifga.org

It is downright amazing what you can discover
with a GOOGLE Search ! –Cliff Hall+++