Using the New Guide Concept, static testing, and the Looks Good to Me method, I've settled on a guide spacing for my 11'4" spinning rod. Instead of moving my butt guide up and down during test casting, I made several masking tape arbors so I could slide the reel seat and reel up and down instead - makes sense to me. I simulated a 10", 12", and 14" (GLoomis recommended) rear grip and found that the longer grip - reel closer to the butt guide did give me the longest casts by an extra 6' over the other two. However, the factory recommended 14" rear grip seems a bit too cumbersome plus I noticed a goofy loop in the line coils between the reel and butt guide which was 22 1/4". It wasn't piling up in front of the guide, just a weird loop in the middle of the coils.

I'm wondering is this loop is due more to the line just being twisted rather than the spool/butt guide distance affecting it?

Also, is the longer cast with a 14" similated rear grip due more to a good spool to butt guide distance or because the shorter distance now between the spool and rod tip is more "limber" therefore it's loading and unloading the rod more? (I think a 12" rear grip is about the maximum I can handle though). Thanks.

Well, it's bound to be a combination of several things. By moving the seat up and back, you're changing the whole dynamics of the rod length that you've got in front of and behind the reel. The amount of leverage is changing and so too is the length of the rod doing the casting.

I would set my butt length distance on what was comfortable for me, not what the factory recommends. Then I'd start from there and see what happens.

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I often wonder about the upsweep of some Mfg's spinning reels being so angled downward, and the 1st guide is placed so close it causes undue friction on the line as it comes off the spool, not so much at the start of the cast but in the ladder half of the cast when the line gets low on the spool arbhor and has to really climb up over the spool lip. I am a staunch advocate of filling the spool as full as possible without this causing undue trouble, which is usually about a 1/16" of an inch down from the spool lip as oppose to the 1/8" lower recommendation line Mfg's suggest..I think they suggest this so your short of line quicker and need to respool more often, and we all know how bad casting is on a spool low on line. To me it would seem the angle the line requires to climb over the lip in the ladder stage of a cast would better ease the inheriant friction if the line were given (1st guide placement) some room to breathe or pillow outward in OD as it traveled to the 1st guide. Then also there has to be an optimum distance beyond which the friction then caused becomes a case of diminishing return. I also consider gravity pulling this pillowing, unravelling lip climbing, vortex earthward, it wants to naturally drop and the rod just after the power stroke, once unloaded is in a brief (but the fastest line flowing peroid) state of counterflex and that would act as if to shorten the 1st guide height off the blank. Considering all these variables I do concept guide, but not necessarily to accomodate one specific size or Mfg's reel. I most always start with a sz 25 guide but align the inside (toward the blank) side of the sz 25 guide ring with the reel spool centerline. Things seem to cast very smoothly and for good distance with minimal effort even light lures. I just wondered about this pillowing vortex and frictional ladder cast ramifications as it pertains to 1st guide placement. I know I must be fighting the reel sweep angle to a minor extent, but its not all that noticable

Tom,

I just finished placing the guides by the Concept system as you demoed it last year in Charlotte. I will be bringing this rod to Charlotte to let you evaluate my placement and recommend any modifications. It is a seven ft. UL (Rainshadow IP 840). I will also be bringing the reel (Mitchell 408) . I have placed 7 guides between the reel and the tip. I almost sense that I need an 8th guide. I have taped the guides with masking tape and a rubber band so they can be moved. You can use this rod in a demo if you like. Your assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated.

See you Sat.

Ed Smith

Spool upsweep, unless it's on the negative side of zero, probably doesn't have much to do with casting distance. Reels aren't like guns - shooting something through an aimed barrel. The line isn't shot off the the spool, it's pulled off and immediately gravity takes over, pulling the line downward at the same time the lure is pulling it up towards the butt guide. You'd have to try with several similarly sized reels with various degrees of offset, but the ones I've tried didn't seem to matter.


Ed,

I'll be happy to take a look at it for you.
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Tim,
What you are seeing is called a standing wave in the line. What it means is that you are losing some of the lines forward momentum at the first guide. The distance between the reel and the first guide should be adjusted to minimize this standing wave if you want the rod to cast the longest distance or cast with minimum effort. I am surprised that you find that you get the longer casts when the reel is moved toward the first guide, the opposite should happen. When increasing the rear handle length you are also essentially shortening the part of the rod that determines the distance or another way to look at it is you are reducing your leverage. I would try your experiments over again by adjusting the distance between the reel and the first guide to minimize the standing wave. I think that you will find that the distance of the cast will increase. If it does not then I am a monkey's uncle.

I agree with Emory. I would place the reel where it fits comfortably to you. You may want to try using a larger rear guide also. I remember a article ib RodMaker about spinning rods, you might want to check that out for reference. Tom Kirkman can tell you what issue. Emory I did not know you were related to Sasquatch
Good Wraps Bob