During my first round of rodbuilding in the mid 1990's, oversize guides were "in"...both in the book that served as my reference (L. A. Garcia's), and word of mouth from fellow builders, at least in regards to fly rods. Larger lumen=less friction/drag on fly line = longer casts was the dogma. I was putting size 16 strippers on 5 and 6 wts, size 20 strippers on anything larger, with a gradual taper of SF's to the tip. I haven't seen anyone mention "oversizing" on this forum since I've been following for the last 6 - 9 months (In a recent thread, size 12 strippers were the largest mentioned for 4 to 6 wt fly rods, then hustled down to sz 6 running guides). So, my question...is there any benefit to oversizing guides (which I define as using larger than usual guides), or is current thinking clearly in favor of smaller, lighter guides = better blank recovery and rod perfomance? Would there be any benefit to using sz 16 stripper (rather than a 12) on a 5 wt, then all size 6 SF running guides?

Sure, I know I could try it both ways...except I really can't. Wouldn't be able to compare the methods side by side as I'll only have one blank. Not to mention I'm going with an aesthetically pleasing but budget busting agate stripper, so I only plan to buy one...a 16 or a 12, depending on what follows.

The way I see it is, small length rods- small guides for short casts. Light and easy. Forty foot casts tops. 5 to eight foot rods. One to four weights. I just put a size 8 stripper on my daughters 7 foot four weight. Now we have to fight some wind and get some more distance. 8 1/2 and up. 4 weights and up. I would now start using 12 and 16 strippers. I feel it depends on what you want the rod to do. I have a Winston wt 8 1/4 4 wt and the guides are real tiny but on small streams it's a real jewel. Guide size should coinside with rod size. This is only my opinion of coarse. Tight wraps. Tom

I like small guides and except for icing they never hold me back and make the rod lighter and crisper. I think testing has disproved the theory of casting distance gains of oversizing guides. Oversizing and reducing friction sounds good in theory but it adds weight and there really isn't much friction while casting to begin with. Notice that Sage has continued through all the oversizing hype to use very small guides on their rods and you don't hear too many people complaining about how Sage rods cast. I think the best thing you can do do make a great casting rod is to not screw up the natural power and recovery attributes of the blank you start with.

Guides should be the proper size, no smaller and no larger. Overly large guides, much larger than they need to be, are only excess weight your blank now has to carry. They rob you of performance/efficiency and thus cut your distance.

The term "oversized guides" was more of a marketing ploy that came into vogue during the heyday of the major commercial manufacturers getting into the saltwater fly rod market.

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I myself still like to oversize my strippers, then taper down to the smallest lightest guides that will still efficiently pass knots. I think of the guides as a funnel from the mouth (strippers) to the nozzle (tip top).

Josh Markvan
www.markvanheirloom.com

Last year I built two forecast 9ft 9 wt's. One set up as spinner with guides 30 to 7 the second set up as fly with guides 16 to 7. Both preformed great but I found I could cast fly line a greater distance with the spinner set up than with the fly rod . Did the larger guides make the difference I don't know... Then I built two 6ft 3wt's with oversized guides 16-6. I did not like them, rods were heavy and seemed overloaded too much in the cast until I rebuild one of them with the proper guides for a rod that size and the rebuilt rod preformed nicely... Perhaps in heavy weight fly rods there is some improvement in casting with oversized guides... Bob.

I would have to think that "oversized" refers to guides that are larger than needed. This can't ever be a good thing. Guides should be sized properly. If your connections or whatnot, require that your fly rod use size 12 guides all the way out, then these are not oversized. They are what is required to do the job.

Terminology may be a problem here in some regards. But I still don't advise people to start putting huge guides on their rods and expecting a casting distance increase. Best thing to do is try several set ups and use the one that gives the best distance. As custom rod builders, I would think this would be one of our required tasks in building a rod.

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The weight of the guides, particularly those toward the tip of the rod, not only determine the rods efficiency and feel but also how the rod casts. When you start forward with the casting motion how much force you use and how rapidly you apply that force determines how much energy is stored up in the rod. However, about half way through the casting motion the rod takes over and releases the energy that it has stored up. The rod determines how rapidly the energy is released you do not determine this. How rapidly it releases the energy is a function of the rods resonant frequency which determines the tip velocity and ultimately the casting distance. The added weight of guides that are larger than necessary lowers the resonant frequency and therefore the maximum casting distance or increases the amount of effort that you must use to cast a given distance.
There is another part of this, that is more important for fly rods, that is easy to over look. Added weight in the guides will reduce the weight, in the case of fly rods the line, that can be cast for a given rod loading.

Patrick,

I've done lots of 'testing', albeit all 'unscientific', by having casters of various abilities cast fly rods with different guide set ups.

The one thing I learned was that using the SMALLEST possible guides gave the best performance to largest crossection of casters. So, when I build ANY fly rod, I use the smallest guides that will pass the required connections. Since most of what I build are freshwater or light salt rods intended for trout, panfish, bass, and inshore or 'beach' use, that's NEVER larger than a #7 running guide (usually 6s or 5.5s) and strippers in the 7 to 10 range. I do like to use a #12 long frame spinning guide on saltwater rods over 9 weights where there will be lots of line shooting for distance, as I find it helps the line make the turn from the basket/deck towards the tip top smoother. I'd use an 8 there if I could find one with a long enough frame, as it seem s that the distance from the blank is what helps, NOT the ring size. Next guide is never larger than an 8, however....

On typical 9' 5 wt. I'll have a #8 stripper, a 7 for a tamer four inches up, then 6s or 5.5s for the rest. All are single foot ceramic insert guides, of course.

Good Luck!

Buddy Sanders

Thanks guy. I will go small.

I like to "oversize" my guides. With a caveat, though. I do not use ceramic running guides- single foot titanium coated guides; the weight difference between a size 4 and a size 2 sf wire guide is minimal. When you use ceramic insert guides, you are already dealing with more weight, even with the tiniest guide. Every size step up adds significant weight to your rod. Sage was mentioned- they use all snake guides on their rods, so the single foot guide is already lighter.. adding a couple sizes to it won't exceed the extra weight of the guide and the extra wrap+epoxy that is needed witha snake guide. The problem I run into a lot, with guides smaller than size 4, is that the knot will not slide through the guides easily. I fish a lot of big water, where a 10-14' leader is common, and I need to run the butt of the leader into the guides every time I land a fish. With hard running fish, like sockeye salmon or steelhead, if the leader knot hangs at all in the guides if the fish takes off on me, it will break the leader or my rod... neither one is a fun option. As for the stripper guide, size really is an issue only if you're picking up a lot of line on a cast, like saltwater applications or big water... that line thats loosely coiled at your feet has to be choked down into the stripper guide before it passes on up the rod. On 6 wts' i will use either a 12, 10 stripper or 16,12, and 7 weights on up i use at least a 16 and 12, then on 9 wts, long 8 weights, and saltwater rods i will often go three strippers- 20, 16, 12. As they are near the butt of the rod, the rod's energy isn't affected, and it helps line get off the deck faster if you need to make a quick, long cast without unneccessary false casting. Of course, this is all subject to what my customer wants built... I only try to talk them out of outright stupid choices on their custom rods.

Steve -

I am intrigued by your last assertion - that the larger and more strippers will "help line get off the deck faster". Are you saying that you can pick up / throw more line with fewer back casts when you have a 20 - 16 - 12 on an 8 wt for example?

Thanks,

Tony