Im putting SiC's on a fly rod for the first time. Can anyone tell me if its ok to follow a snake spacing chart? Im starting with 12 DF and finishing the top section with 7's in single foot. Its a 6 weight 9 1/2 foot Any help would be great

This should answer your questions [www.rodbuilding.org]

I wouldn't recommend a chart, if you want the best performing rod. Read the guide placement article in the library. Also if you haven't already bought the guides you can use a smaller size 6 on your rod with no problem and get to the little guides as fast as you can. Give us a chance and we'll change your whole rod for you. LOL.

WOW This is the fastest board for replies that Ive ever been on. Just been looking at the flex method of placement by Tom that Bill pointed out in the first reply. I havnt built for a few years and looks like things have changed a bit. I just used to put the guides on by the static method from a spacing book from my rod blank/componant shop. Spencer, you say 6's. What about the stipper/s then? Sould I stick with 12. I was laughing at the changing of the whole rod. So heres your chance LOL

The information you've gotten here is great, but I will take just a moment and revert to your original question - "Im putting SiC's on a fly rod for the first time. Can anyone tell me if its ok to follow a snake spacing chart?" The answer is yes.

I don't really advocate charts for anything other than maybe a general place to start before static testing, but will say that changing from snakes to single foot ceramics won't require any change in guide location. Is that what you were wanting to know?

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First thanks for all the replies so far

Tom, I thought that maybe there might be a whole different train of thought for spacing SiC's. After you reply it sounds to me that when working with snakes or inserts you follow the same principles. I know where my stripper guide goes from a chart. Im just going to see how many guides I need to place them 5 inches apart(between stripper and tip) and then minus as in your article. I think Ill wait a bit though to buy my guides as Ive already changed my mind after Spencers post and go with 6's. If anybody replies with somemore ideas Ill encorporate into my plan of attack.

GREAT site. Keep up the good work
Scott B

Right, spacing isn't really dependent on the type of guide you use. So just proceed as normal no matter what type guide you end up with.

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Scott,
The positioning and the number of guides you use is a function of stress distribution and line control on the one hand and and rod performance on the other. I would take particular care to not use any more guides or any larger guides than is absolutely necessary. Experiments have been done that show that due to the added weight, for each additional guide that you add or each larger guide size that you use the performance of a rod like you are building, as determined by the rods resonant frequency, will drop by close to 10%. I would drop down to the #6s toward the tip and not use any more than absolutely necessary, use short wraps of fine thread, A or less, and use as little epoxy on the wraps as practical if you want the maximum performance out of the rod.

I have seen recently a manufacturers spacing chart for a particular blank that was just nothing like right. Confirmed this by viewing the same rod on the rack by the manufacturer. My static testing showed much closer at the tip. Their actual wrap was similarly much closer. The spacing chart they publish for that blank is just not right. I learned static testing right here just a few years ago and it is just one example of many instant improvements in my practice. I don't have to make all the mistakes myself anymore with the incredible knowledge base available here and in RM.

When planning a rod, I use the spacing charts as a guide to order the number of guides plus one or two extra, then set up initially with the charted spacing for adjustments and perhaps an additional guide via static testing. See the curve of the line parallel the curve of the blank and know it's right empirically. Balanced stress is a wonderful thing, and static setup is proof by trial and error. faster than calculations and probably more accurate.

This is fantastic. You guys have given me some great info.

Im really curious to test my rod Tim. As per Emory's reply Ive chose to go with SiC titanium frames in 6's. As far as static testing goes what is the best way to hold the blank under tension while positioning the guides?

If you can affix the butt somehow and then tie a line to a mounted tip top and affix that by weight or some similar means to keep the rod in a flex while you move the guides. This is much easier than if you tried to achieve and hold the flex with the line that you're going to be running through the guides.

Go to the photo page and look under equipment and tools. Somebody there had a really nice set up for mounting a rod and flexing it while adjusting guides. Can't remember who it was, but it was a pretty slick set-up.

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Thanks Tom. Nice setup. Ill have to design something for a fly rod as theres no butt sticking out behind the reel. I was thinkin of some type of V blocks on the cork. Seeing the photos of that one gives me a much clearer idea of what I need.



Thanks everyone. REALLY do appreciate all the experience in all of the replies

Scott,
You may not want to go this far but here is another option if you are planning to build more rods and make Common Sense measurements on them and if you have a shop with enough room to do it.
Get a 1/2", 4' by 8' sheet of plywood and mount a vice at one of the upper corners and cover the plywood with grid paper. The vice will hold the butt end of the rod while you deflect the rod for Common Sense measurements. The CC deflection measurements can be made directly off the grid on the paper. The grid paper also helps in keeping everything level including the protractor for making action angle measurements. Then this same set up can be used for static deflection guide positioning with a weight and line to the tip of the rod as suggested above.
I epoxied a couple of pieces of foam to the jaws of the vice so that it does not scar up a cork handle or reel seat. You can get one of the vices that lay flat, are inexpensive and bolt directly to the plywood at any home improvement store. I also find it convenient to make notes directly on the grid paper for reference. It will also be easier on your back if you mount the sheet of plywood a couple of feet off of the floor.

Scott,
You can buy (or build) something like this. [www.cabelas.com] I have one similar mounted on the end of my wrapping bench and just stick the rod/reel in it and deflect away.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

Mike,
That is just a rod holder designed for boat mounting. That is a good idea. Why didn't I think of that?

Ya that is a good practical solution Mike. Ive got one kicking around that has a recess for a spinning reel foot and a locking ring. Thanks. Ive found a starting point spacing at 10 guides for a 9 1/2 rod

Im going to go with: I think LOL DF 12 DF10? SF8 SF7 SF 6's -(6) Tip Top

will buy 2 extra 6's for testing Im looking to build
another after this so they wont go to waste.