As I am building my first rod I stared to wonder what would be the effect if someone built the rod on the wrong (or opposite side) of the spine? I followed Garcia's book and I am pretty sure I got it right but couldn't help but wonder. Would it ruin the rod or be a minor issue?
Thanks
Jeff

I think it's just about as important as finding an ex-wife...

Putter
Williston, ND

Just look for the straightest axis and put the "belly" of any curve facing down.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2006 04:04PM by Mike Barkley.

What! No spine for that....

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

If you put the guides on the "wrong" side of the spine, don't worry about it. Neither you nor the fish will notice. "Wrong" is in quotes because there is no "wrong" side. Putting the guides on the spine adds slight resistance on the back cast and it's easier on the tippets and fish; opposite the spine has just the opposite effect. In reality the difference is so slight as to be unimportant. Many builders don't worry about the spine at all. When I'm through finding the spine, I make sure, as Mike says, that the blank is straight along the spine. It will be much more noticeable to anyone if the rod is warped, i.e., the guides aren't straight from butt to tip.

Jim

It is not as important as it was in the old days before the laminating became better. Still It is as aspect of rod building some consider important from a professional point of view. Millions of factory rods have been produced with no regard for the spine. I dont think anyone will take your birthday away if you dont spine the rod.

I do still spine them out of habit, also (and have all of my birthdays intact, too :) ). But if it's got a crook that's real noticeable, I do go off that instead. Haven't run into one of these in quite a while, though...

Putter
Williston, ND

i used to be concerned about it but now generaly wrap on the straight axis. sometimes however it is useful in order to fine tune the rod. what i find is that there is a "soft" axis and a "stiff axis. on multi piece rods you can position guides so as to slightly impact the action and effective taper of the rod. it is slight though. bamboo rods also display this and on a recent buid i found the stiffest axis and found that the rod picked up line off the water better than on the soft axis. the casting result was a larger loop though but this rod was intended to have a "wet fly" action anyway.
(ok, let the slings and arrows fly)

There is no "wrong" side of the spine. Nor is there a "correct" side of the spine. It's also very important to remember that what you do when you pressure and roll a blank by hand does not in any approximate what happens when a rod is loaded via a line running through a set of guides.

Nothing bad is going to happen if you don't orient the spine in a particular position. You can slightly alter some very subtle performance characteristics by spine position, but you cannot use it to create stability or better accuracy.


.................

I believe YOUR load carrying capacity would be diminished if YOUR spine was laterally misplace 40 degrees. It is my determination that the spine of a rod is similar to the spine of our body. That is, it's more useful if it's on the top of the rod. It (our spine) holds us straight and helps us flex and when loaded carry the weight without folding in half.
I hope you catch my analogy.
It's also something else I can talk to my customer about when selling the idea of a custom Great Basin Fishing Rod.




Good Wrappin !
David A. Fuller,
Great Basin Fishing Rods
Full-Time RV'r Traveling- n- Fishing
www.mytripjournal.com/FullersBigAdventure

The difference between the power on the softest and stiffest axii (these are not 180 degrees apart) is usually not more than about .2 on the ERN scale. So overall power difference is really not at all significant. The spine is not a physical thing like our human "backbone," it is only the end effect of various manufacturing anomolies.

But there's no reason not to discuss it with your customer I suppose.

............

I think talking to the customer is important, they should know that if the spine is 90 degres to the left or right the rod might want to "wander" in that direction and if you dont have a good grip on it (wood instead of foam) you might find yourself with two fights.

.....and all these years I thought it was called the "spline".

I've never understood any of the discussions on the spine or "effective" spine....whether rolling on the floor or or in a fixed "spinefinder", I just figure the idea of having the soft side or natural bend of the blank go toward the water in a fish fighting position makes alot of sense, even more sense with spinning rods.

Food for thought...Tom mentioned "manufacturing anomolies" or the process off making a blank......Try this out....Grab a blank, put it in your 45 degree splinefinder or do a the floor type "rolling method"... pulling down on the tip, and mark a location like you were setting up a rod....now pull the same blank, but have your "pull down point" 12" down the blank from the tip and make a mark as you would...do it again a little further down the blank, make a mark, a little further, make a mark etc....in the end, based on the blanks properties alone.....do all your marks match up? Manufacturing Anomolies.

.....I'll always do the tip method and place the guides accordingly, but after watching a rod flip around in a spinefinder based on guide position alone.......guide position dictates performance on some rods.

(threadart is important too...lol)







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2006 03:19PM by Michael Joyce.

Michael,
Using your test I think that you will often find that the spine will move depending upon where you hold it and how much you deflect it. The reason is that one of the things that causes the spine in a blank is how the material (prepreg) overlaps. The material is lined up straight on the mandrel to begin with but with succesive layers wrapped on the mandrel it gets more and more out of allignment. The fine line that you often see that spirals up a blank that only has clear coat on it is the end of the material. So because the overlap in the material tends to spiral up the blank it causes the spine to not run straight up the blank but to rotate up the blank. You see this when doing a test like you suggested. The more force you use to deflect the blank the more the spine will tend to move.

Who was it that said "it's a tempest in a pot of tea". I can not think of anything in rod building that more has been said about and has less effect on rod performance than spine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2006 03:36PM by Emory Harry.

Hi Guys,
Re the question asked by Jeff re the "spine",as a rod building newbie I have maxed out on "spine info" !.I know it can be a complicated subject but If you do "spine" a blank ,whatever system you use,do you want the rod to curve more easily toward the fish,or toward the backcast?I know some rod builders say it doesnt matter,but to those who do,why does it matter? ie why bend toward the fish and not the back cast.and vice versa?My question is related to a 9ft, two piece,fly rod blank , and also to a 3 piece 14ft bait rod blank for float fishing for perch etc.


Many Thanks

Ian

Thanks for the post Emory....Its helps clarify my point. I get so @#$%& off when I think about the amount of time I spent trying to "understand the spine", reading the available books at the time..................and the now the spine beomes a reletively moot point overall, years later. .... For those that see this post, do the test and think about it on your own. It might help.

Beleive it or not Michael It was called the spline out here for many years by many of the old pros.

Jason,

The rod will not "wander" to either side, it will stay put and move only in the direction of the load. If the guides are on top of the rod, the rod may twist (severly in some cases) but if the guides are on the bottom it won't This is true regardless of where you orient the spine.

The reason the spine location changes when you support the blank at different locations along its length is due, in fact, for the very reason that the spine is not a thing - it as an effect. When you flex the blank you get the effect averaged over the length you're working with. Thus, flexing and supporting it over different lengths results in different spine locations.
And again, loading the blank by hand and loading it via a line running through the guides are two entirely different things. I've yet to have a fish jump out of the water and grab a blank by a fin and deflect it.

I think Emory summed up the subject of rod spine quite well,

"I cannot think of anything in rod building that more has been said about and has less effect on rod performance than spine."


.................

A spiral wrap will fix that fight problem.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Doc...From what I hear, it was a misprint of the word "spline" in the original Clemens Custom Rodbuilding book, that actually made the word somewhat famous in rodbuilding. (thats the explanation I got at least). I like the word.

Jeff, to answer your question in my opinion....a minor issue.