I went to a Jo Anns sewing center yesterday to get some Madeira thread. This particular store doesn't sell it. So I found some Coats & Clark Trilobal Polyester 40 wt. I bought a spool and have taken it home. Did a wrap on a scrap piece, put 2 coats of CP and applied FC HB this morning. Does anyone have any experience with this thread? This particular store is offering 75% off. Will let you know how the test works. Thanks as always for your wisdom and experience. Scott

At 75% off....what did it cost for how much?

This post not related to brand name or wt of thread. Cost and color are not the two features of a thread that influence which thread I use.

My question: Should polyester thread be used on guide wraps? I have only used nylon wrapping thread for guides. The choice of thread for guide wraps should also consider strength and longevity. I have not used metallics for FULL guide wraps due to the thin strand of polyester in the core. I really would like to know is the use of polyester recomended for wrapping guides on all types of fishing rods? Or does it have limitations and if so what are they?

Gon Fishn



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2006 09:21AM by Bill Stevens.

I've found that various 40wt embrodiery threads (Madeira, Superior) are plenty strong enough for guide wraps. I wouldn't use them for overwraps on offshore tackle, or heavy jigging rods (their breaking strength is slightly less than A nylons)...... but these type of threads do make color and price a factor.

Michael: Is the initial tensile strength of the polyester threads non degradeable and long lasting in use conditions? I made an error and flocked some grips with rayon fibers instead of nylon and have had some problems. I can understand cost factors and use of the pretty stuff on butt wraps but the guides on blue water rods and very short wraps on single foot guides bother me. I have seen no position statement of the manufacurers on thead except that Nylon is the one that is called Rod Wrapping Thread. I would hope that someone has the data to support the use of these threads. I am just looking for something to give me a warm fuzzy feeling. What a shame that someone from Guidebod does not frequent this board - I would assume that they do know.

Gon Fishn

I have made a couple of previous posts about this C&C thread. I am pretty familar with the differences between nylon and polyester from my "day job", which involves industrial belting (conveyor, power transmission). In that arena, polyester has just about eclipsed nylon, due to certain superior attributes.
First, polyester is non-hygroscopic. This means that it doesn't absorb water, and change dimensions. Nylon does, and can easily grow in length 2%, and even more in certain cases. This can be seen in the rod building world when you use a water-based cp on a butt wrap, for example. With the rods I have made using the polyester, the threads on a butt wrap do not length when they are hit with cp.
Polyester doesn't have nearly the elasticity of nylon. Look at nylon monofilament, as an example. It will elongate quite a bit with load, which is a good thing when you have a big fish on a short line. Try that with polyester, and something will break. I don't think this has much impact on rod building, but it does act differently than nylon when wrapping. With nylon, if you use a real high tension the individual thread stretches much more than polyester. I think, though, that if you are using the correct tension (not too much, in other words) this is really not a factor.
Industrially, about the only downside to polyester is that it not as abrasion resistant as nylon. You can look at a heavy Cordura type nylon suitcase, versus a much cheaper polyester fabric suitcase. They initially look the same, but after awhile, the polyester fabric will get all fuzzy looking, as abrasion wears down the fabric. But, since the threads are not abraded against anything, I don't think this is a factor in rod building.
The price I pay for the Coats and Clark is not much less than I can buy a corresponding length of nylon (Gudebrod, etc.) The only reason I have looked at the polyester is that it just takes so long to get thread specifically for rod building. I am not at the point yet where I have a lot of spare material sitting around, and there are no local shops selling rob building supplies. So, I am slowly gravitating to thread I can buy locally.
I guess in summation I would say that, from my experience with polyester versus nylon in other fields, I don't see anything that would cause polyester to be a problem. I guess the only way of ever improving things is to try something different.
Steve Broadwell

Steve - I cannot disagree with what you said, it those are your observations. However, if you compre Gudebrod Nylon and MAdeira Poyneon (polyester), teh Poly is BY FAR more elastic than the Nylon. I personall have found it more abrasion resistant - if I slip while packing with my meatal tool, the Poly hreads will fuzz, teh Nylon will pop and cut all teh way through. I think for making a jacket, I would much ratehr have Nylon thread, as they do not fuzz like Poly, but for butt wraps I much ratehr have a thread which will not pop and unravel the way Nylon does whe nI make a mistake.

Personally, I will never use MAdeira Poly for guide wraps. First, I have to use CP becasue epoxy doesn't stick to it. Second, I HATE how it stretches when I wrap under tension. For me, Nylon is much more user friendly for guide wraps, Poly for butt wraps. That doesn't mean there aren't 25 guys who love it for guide wraps, I've used it on a couple of rods, and it's just not for me.

Thanks Steve for your start of the information that I need! This information is developing in a manner that will help me! I buy thread on 4 oz large spools. Thanks!

Gon Fishn

I agree with Billy in that the Madeira Polyneon has far more elasticity than the nylon thread. Though it is a different animal than nylon when doing guide wraps once you do a few there's really nothing to it. I pretty much use the Madeira Polyneon #40 for all the flyrods I build and have never had a problem. If somebody specifically asks for no cp then I go to Gudebrod.

BIll, if you buy large spools, you might want to look into Polyester threads yourself, as they are extremely cheap in bulk. I believe there were sales for 5500 cones of Black for $5 earlier this year (and probably if you have a wholesale license). I never looked into Nylon 4oz aspools, so I'm not sure if there is a big diff in price, but I think there is.

Bill,

Mark Crouse has a pic of a 16# box of laundry soap hanging from a #6 SF guide wrapped with madiera polyneon on the old photo board. I have used mettalic (gudebrod, Sulky) on a large number of guide wraps over the years and have never had one give. I have also used polyestor 40 wgt on guides with no problems so far (only been one season, though). Keep in mind though that I have done nothing bigger than muskie rods.

Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

My "day job" is making yarn and thread from filament polyester and nylon. The elasticity of the two are very similar and depend more on how the thread is processed, rather than the initial chemistry of the two polymers. Generally speaking, nylon is 20% stronger than polyester. Nylon has about 4-4.5% moisture regain, and polyester only has .5% moisture regain. Due to significant differences in how the two are dyed, I would think that polyester colors are probably more fade resistant than nylon colors. In the automotive industry, polyester will pass the sun-fade standards and nylon won't. Polyester thread should be cheaper than nylon, since in raw form, poly is about half the price of nylon.
On threads not intended for rod wrapping, the major concern is what type of lubricant was used when the thread was made. Much of the sewing thread on the market uses a silicone based lubricant to reduce friction during sewing. And we know what silicone does for finish epoxy.
Just my two cents worth.

LH Custom Rods

It has been 4 hours since I put the FC on the wrap and it looks great. The price at this store for an 1100 yd. spool is 2.96. Which is alot cheaper then I can currently buy Gudbrod. Thanks for the posts. Scott

$2.96 for a 1100 yard spool!!!!???? Damn dude.....Where are my keys?.....Oh....wait....It is New Year's Day!

$&@!$&$$&

Curses.....Foiled again.

All joking aside, I use Madeira and Sulky threads almost exclusively because of the convenience involved in being able to go to my local source and pick the colors for a specific project right off the shelf. I don't use epoxies, so the thread coating are not a problem. You also cannot beat the color selections when some lines have as many as 300 different offerings.

Trying to find an online source for 1-4oz spools of "Soft" Nylon and Polyester threads, but no luck so far.

I would prefer to use Board Sponsers for my supplies , but unfortunately, not on what I get paid.

Derek

Billy, I think Lynn hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the different ways the yarns are made. I have never used Madeira, due to the fisheye problems I saw mentioned here. I can say, from my own experience, that the C&C trilobal has not so far (three spools) had any trouble with fisheyes, so they must not coat this yarn. And, it seems to have very low elasticity.
In any event, I think that, as has been discussed here many times before, any of these threads is strong enough for guide wraps, particularly with a good epoxy locking everthing in.
Boy, I wish I could find the Coats and Clark trilobal for $2.96. I have been paying about $5.50, which really is no bargain compared to a 950 yard spool of Gudebrod. Again, it is something I can get locally, though.
Steve

"Much of the sewing thread on the market uses a silicone based lubricant to reduce friction during sewing. And we know what silicone does for finish epoxy. " LH Custom Rods

I agree completely.

I've found this out 1st hand and haven't bought anything "off brand" (other than Sulky Metallics that I REALLY like) since. All that work in wrapping and have a finish problem due to threads silicone is a nightmare that I wont live again. Thread is one of the CHEAPEST things we use, " why take the chance" is the way I feel about it.

DR

I have used quite a bit of the Mettler brand 40# trilobal polyester and found it to be exceptionally good. I use it on guide wraps and for butt wraps or feather inlay underwraps. My personal experience in the bright Aussie sunshine is that it holds its colour a lot better than nylon threads, it is cheaper, has a greater colour range and is more forgiving. Like Billy mentioned above, the poly thread will fuzz a little but will still hold. Be extremely carefull when singeing the fuzzy bits with a flame as it does scortch easilly. The nylon in most cases will pop under too much presure. I use a mix of both types of thread. I do like to use A or C grade nylon for my guide overwraps.

Steve - I figured tehre was more to it, that is why I specified exactly what i was talking aboutin my post, so there was no confusion. It's interesting to read all this stuff from a bunch of grown men. I'd think I was on a old age home knitting forum rather than a hardcore fishing site, lol. Waht's worse, is I'm sure I have way more threads than those old ladies on the forums, lol.

Billy - it is sorta weird, isn't it? Us sitting around talking about the benefits of different kinds of thread. We probably should have taken Home Ec back in high school.

I think it's just nice to see yer all sobered up, now.

Putter
Williston, ND