I've read many discussions on hand-turning rods as opposed to using a rod dryer, but I haven't read a reason as to why many feel hand-turning provides a better finish. Why is the result better? Does it look better? Dry more evenly? I've hand turned the few I've built but would like to use a small RPM motor only because of laziness.

In my experience hand turning provides for better leveling, especially over wide areas of epoxy. I'm not certain if the 180 degree turn allows better distribution of the epoxy or by hand turning I am able to remove sagging excess epoxy to a point that I achieve a better balance in the amount of epoxy applied. I hand turn until I am satisfied that I have no excessive amount of epoxy on any wrap and then finish the turning mechanically. This method has improved my chances of obtaining smooth and level epoxy coatings regardless of the reason.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

I too get a better finish by hand turning. For a 30 to 45 minutes I turn in 1/4 turn increments every couple minutes and watch for sagging then for the next hour or so I go to 1/2 turn incrments about every 15 to 20 minutes. I also think it releases bubbles better, not real positive on that one tho.

Bruce, I usually hand turn but if don't have the time to babysit it to the end, I do the same as Stan. You can get a very good finish by tossing on the finish, removing the sags and then let the motor do its thing. But with hand turning, the finish does come out a bit more level with less sags and footballing. The reason I think this is so is because with hand turning, there are more opportunities to observe and remove any slight sags as you go. With initial sag removal and motor turning, there is more opportunity to be moving too much finish around, which can end up with slight waves. Even when you think you have removed excess, it's possible to still have too much on. To me, it's hard to beat a wrap under light with a perfectly straight line of reflected light over the surface.

Bruce,
There are obviously many people that do a beautiful job by hand turning but I think that they are mostly builders that use multiple thin coats of epoxy. I do not have any argument at all with this other than it takes time. If you are attempting to use a single coat of epoxy or even two heavier coats I think that you will probably get better results with a dryer.

This is really a pretty complex issue. The coat thickness of any finish is affected by the viscosity at a particular moment. The viscosity is reduced by elevating the temperature and increases slowly as a function of time during the "drying" period. The nature of fluids is that they all level while in the static condition.

No matter what technique you use to apply finish there will be differences in the thickness of the coat along the length of the area coated. If the work piece is static the excess finish will slump to the lowest point, which is the bottom of the rod. If you apply finish to a 6 inch butt wrap and watch the finish will tend to form slump nodes on the bottom of the rod that look like drops that will soon drop off. If you flame the finish to drop the viscosity you will cause the film thickness to decrease and enable excess to the low point.

If a rod is in rotation, excess finish will be picked up and distributed over the circumference at any given point. The shear properties of the finish and the viscosity determine just how much of the excess is placed in rotation and leveled by the properties of the finish. The differences in the coating thickness during application coupled with rotation during the period of increasing viscosity during finish "set" may wavey surfaces.

It seems logical to me to apply finish at high speed to get as level of a coat on as possible, stop and let excess slump to bottom, drop viscosity, remove excess, rotate at high speed to final level, stop and check for slumping and then place on slow drying motor.

Gon Fishn

Bill Stevens Wrote:
-
> It seems logical to me to apply finish at high
> speed to get as level of a coat on as possible,
> stop and let excess slump to bottom, drop
> viscosity, remove excess, rotate at high speed to
> final level, stop and check for slumping and then
> place on slow drying motor.
>

This is just about the way I apply epoxy. Apply near the guides while the rod is static - dab while the guides are facing you & dab while the guides are facing away (180 degrees off). That let's me get near the guide feet without overrun or heavy application. Then start the rod rotating to apply the remainder of the epoxy to the wraps. Heat the epoxy with a small crafter's heat gun (not a paint burner) while the rod is turning to increase the viscosity and ensure deep penetration into the threads ( I seldom use CP). This will also keep the epoxy from running down onto the guide support frame. Stop the rotation with the guides pointing up - that allows excess epoxy to pool at the bottom; wick away excess with the brush and restart on the powered dryer. This way I can apply epoxy to a couple of rods and keep them all in the 'final finish stage' just before I close up the shop for the night .

Finish (epoxy) viscosity (as a function of time and temperature); dryer speed (RPMs); film thickness, density & flow rate; liquid-solid adhesion; wetting of the rod blank & guide foot; etc., all factor into this subject. A high speed of rotation will tend to throw-out the finish and increase footballing, while decreasing leveling slightly. Hand turning, or a slow RPMs dryer, gives the finish time to FLOW into a place that spontaneously reduces all these surface tensions and balances these gravitational-kinetic (rotary) forces. Even vertical hanging can work very well for some applications, and produce a no-sag surface. Fluid flow with time-dependent viscosity subject to a centrifugal force is all so complex that only a large-scale practical approach is possible, IMO, ... whatever works for your combination of variables, techniques and conditions, that's the way to go, ...

Start with a good thread finish, and use it the right way, and that will simplify everything you have to do (or better yet, DON'T have to do) later. -Cliff Hall+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2005 11:37AM by Cliff Hall.

I've always hand-turned my rods, but that's mainly because I've been too cheap to shell out the bucks for a mechanical turner. I've always spent that money on more rod blanks, rather than the turner. It may be false economy, but it "feels" like I've gotten the better end of the deal.

I'm now finally to the place where I'm consistently happy with the end result of my finish epoxy. But, it's taken quite awhile to get to this point. As already mentioned above, on my final coat of epoxy (typically the 2nd coat), I apply a heavy coat, then take off what sags at the bottom. I remove the excess over and over again, while manually turning the rod--usually in 180 degree increments. Somewhere in the process, I generally have to add very tiny amounts of epoxy back onto some slightly starved threads at the top of the guide foot, and at the ends of the guide wraps. I also continually remove excess epoxy that pools at the point where the guide leg comes off the blank. But, because I'm hand-turning, I can watch each guide wrap closely throughout the process, and make sure each guide wrap has the least amount of epoxy that will still cover all the thread wraps.

Because my turning process is so slow, I generally do long horizontal brush-strokes on the butt wrap area to keep my epoxy from pooling there. With the thin coat on the butt wraps, I often have to go back and do another (i.e. 3rd) thin coat of epoxy just on the butt section. But again, I'm always trying to use the absolute least amount of epoxy necessary to fully coat all the threads/inscriptions/decals/etc.

I use a drier motor for two reasons, one I am able to get an even finish, two is that I always put a heavy coat on the Frist finish coat. Then I add a little heat to remove any excess finish, foot balling and breaking up micro bubbles that would appear. By using heat I am able to get a nicer even finish that flows evenly onto the blank without leaving an edge at the end if the finish. I do not believe you can accomplish this by hand turning, do to the drying time of the epoxy finishes
Good Wraps Bob.

Andrew: I made my frist dryer using a used rotesior motor, a PVC end cap , 3 thumb screws 2 L brackets and a short peace of wood, Total cost 8 bucks. Heck today I think they go fore about 25 or 30 bucks with a stand, a little more if you need rod supports.
Good Wraps Bob Andrew I would have emailed you, but your email is hidden

Every now and then there is a post about applying finishes at high speed, claiming the centrifugal force throws epoxy all over the place, and causes football shapes, etc. These posts are obviously made by people that do not apply their epoxies at elevated speeds -- otherwise they would know better. I have been applying epoxies by spatula at about 200 rpm for more years than I care to count (some of you wouldn't believe me anyway) To most people that I have shown this procedure this is indeed a very high speed, yet the epoxy seems to stay put on the threads. I had been doing this for several years when I discovered that the Flexcote Co. markets a neat little rig for applying finishes to rods, and what d ya know they have installed a 200rpm motor on the rig. Of course all of my application of epoxy finishes is via a spatula. I wouldn't be caught dead using a brush. I've always believed in using the proper tool for the job, ( I never use
a phillips screwdriver for driving roofing nails) ie. brushes are for painting, our thread finish epoxies are not paint, they are casting resins, and deserve to be respected as such. I simply mix my resin give it about 30seconds or so, pour it into a flat plastic cap about 3" dia., set my rod turner for about 200 rpm and start scooping the resin onto the threads. By using the spatula as the leveling tool I am able to apply just the right amount of resin while the rod is turning. It takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a couple minutes for each guide, and maybe one to two minutes for the butt wrap then its transferred to my wall mounted drier which turns at 18rpm. I seldom have to do anymore adjusting of the applied resins, except for single foot guides where it is always necessary to remove the excess that has flowed behind each guide. I do this with the spatula. Of course I have to clean up all the epoxy thrown onto the walls by the centrifugal force of the spinning rod.

Ralph

Ralph,

What about the finish jobs you've been getting by hand turning? A little bird told me that they are darn near perfect. Something about just cutting notches in a cardboard box and using that to support the rod while you turn it every now and then.

.................

It's amazing how many ways there are to get a nice, even, level finish job. I started by hand turning. It did great. I went to a faster motor. It did great. I now have a 2 RPM that does great. I don't have room for more than one, so I just use this one because I can marble while the rod is turning on it and keep up with it.

Definitely more than one way to skin a cat and it's the forgiving nature of the epoxies we use that allows this to happen.

Putter
Williston, ND

Ralph - apply finish at approximately 200 rpm. I started this when I saw the Allstar people in Houston using the Flexcoat motors you refer to. The do a rod in less than 10 seconds with two guys to a rod - amazing! Footballs are caused by the excess finish the more excess the higher the center point. You can also use the speed in your favor in removing excess with your application tool used like a spatula.

Gon Fishn

over the last year i have seen quite a few high priced factory rods in which i know the finish has been applied at high speed due to the tiny pin point size spots of finish left all over the very expensive matte rod blanks.i also look at them and think how much better my finish has been looking compaired to them and i am no pro either..

Tom
That little bird was absolutely correct. Whenever I want a perfect or near perfect finish, I always do it in my special box with the V shaped cutouts designed to hold a rod nice and straight and level. The hand turned finish beats the turning finish by a wide margin and with absolutely no fuss and bother. With LS Supreme HiBuild, I don't even have to turn any more after the first hour or so. However most of my finishes do not have to be all that perfect and production speed is the parameter. If I'm doing a few rods for friends, or the neighborhood kids, and they want it tomorrow --- they really don't know the difference between a finish on the 18rpm turner and one which was hand picked with care. Except for the drying/turning operation, the application technique is identical in either case.
Ralph

Bill Stevens and Ralph O'Quinn,

This is the arguement I made a day or two ago. I have no doubt that one can get excellant results by hand turning. I too use a spatula and/or a cut credit card (I call these Mike Barkley doctor knives.-Anyone who has worked in the coating industry knows what a doctor knife is) I have done numerous experiments at up to 220 rpm and get my best results at the higher speed. (if you don't mess with the viscosity of the finish. Warning: Do not use Permagloss at these high speeds.) After about an hour or two I'll transfer to a slower motor. At this point the finish has setup enough that speed is not that important. What you two are saying is exactly correct.

Ed Smith

Ed,

Ralph stated in the post right above yours that when he wants a "perfect" finish, he hand turns!! I know absolutely nothing about chemistry or physics but I defibately get MY best results with hand turning for a couple hours before turning on the dryer. Everyone's mileage may vary.



Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!