With all of the debate lately on guide placement recently (myself included), I really feel the static deflection test is a great tool for initial guide placement. However, it requires some knowledge to determine the difference between what a good set of line angles look like versus bad angle line - (my biggest problem).

I brought up the idea a while back about using "templates" with known angles to hold up against my rod setup to use as a guide to determine good versus bad line angles - but I didn't get the response that I was looking for. So I'll do what my wife does when she doesn't the answer she's looking for - she'll ask the same question but change a few of the words so that it sounds different . . . . .

If you take a protractor and use it to draw various angles - 180 degrees (straight line), 175, 170, 165, 160, etc., exactly where on a scale like this would one want to keep their line angles within? If I could make a "Go - No Go" sort of template with the apex notched out, I could hold it up against a guide and align the edges of the template with the line on my deflected rod and determine whether that angle is acceptable or not. This would help me from putting on too many guides and/or putting them too close together. Thanks.

Tim; Start by putting on the tip and the next guide back. Locate the guide about 3 1/2 to 4 inches back from the tip. Put the rod in your stress test device and tie a cord to the tip just behind the tip top. Now stress the blank to about 90 degrees with the axes the guides will be on in the UP position. Do it this way for conventional as well as Spinning rods. Now tie a sinker to another line and run the line up through the tip and the first guide. Then thread on another guide that will be located behind the first one. Pull the line taught against the weight of the sinker while holding the guide against the blank . Now slide the guide up or down the blank until the line rises just off the blank and tape the guide in that location. Thread on another guide and repeat the process until you get all your guides on. You can also measure the approximate position of the stripper and then adjust the final spacing when you get to its location. This method will give you good spacing and stress distribution but can also be optimized if you wish. Don't worry about the angles.

One of the challenges I see with wanting to create a template. Is that each person doing a defection test, puts what they perceive as the best amount of pressure on a blank that works for them. And that with out a standard of what that pressure should be the angles would be different in each test. You could build one for yourself. If you could determent what amount of pressure worked for you. for each rod class you were testing and duplicate it every time. But then the challenge to that would be that even same blanks from same factory of same weight and action sometimes bend differently.
At least that’s is my humble opinion.

Jim's method makes a lot of sense to me but for some reason I always static test fly rods with the guides down and adjust for equal spacing between the blank and the taught line at a midpoint between two adjacent guides. I do the first placement by eyeballing this distance and make the final adjustment by making certain those midpoint measurements are similar by using a caliper. Hopefully our different methods are providing like results.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Stan

i was thinking the same thing.
Why do spin guides in the up position ? There will be more guides then is necessary. Plus the rod is not used in that position. Conventional I can see to make sure the line stays off the blank.

Jim's method is the best I've heard. His explanation is clear and the method is fast and works well. Using surgical tubing as rubber bands makes this method really easy.

Angles smangles just string it up and flex it and if the line path has large flat areas and looks like an octigon instead of an arc
add a guide and or reposition as needed to obtain line travel that best follows the bend of the blank.

KISS

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

But spin guides in the up position ?? You will have more guides then needed ?

I do just about what Jim does, but I use a flyline and the reel as my weight. These old eyes see that better.

With the spin guides in the up position ????????

Bill; Yes guides up. However you are right that you will end up with one or maybe two guides more than optimum depending on how heavy the blank is. That's why I said you can optimize the set up. When you actually put the reel on and pull on the rod as though fishing with the line attached to something the tip will flatten out so yes you can adjust the spacing if you wish. I will confess that I use a combination of this method and placing the rod along a straight table edge as explained in the library section to do mine. It's just that guide placement really isn't as difficult as many seem to make it and this method is easy for a beginning rod builder to use.

Thanks Jim, I asked the question some time ago where someone had the guides on top and spaced them out until the line just touched the blank. I thought I was halucinating since Bill and everyone else thought I was crazy - I'm glad to see your post Jim. As I thought about my Go-NoGo template, I got to thinking about my other problem I have with the static test - just how do I make sure the blank is flexed correctly. Flexed too much and a good line angle looks bad - flexed too little and bad angles could look good.

I still think the Don Morton Equal Angle has merit simply because it flexes the blank 90 degrees (and this is a repeatable process for me) and is the same 90 degree as Jim Upton does. Another question I posed earlier was trying to intregrate guiding spacing with the ERN and Action Angle. I still like that idea, especially the Action Angle part - which is also a repeatable process for me. But I'm not sure that is enough flex. I still like Jim's and Don's 90 degree flex. I think I'll modify my static test jig to where it puts a 90 degree flex in the blank and see what kind of mess I can make with that.

Here's something I do sometimes that might help. First, with my blank in a 90 degree bend (we'll say a spinning blank), I run the line through the guides and eyeball the angles of the line running in and out of the guides, sliding guides up and back as it seems necessary. But, then, just to make myself feel better, I take a small ruler and measure the space between the blank and the fishing line (running through the guides).

Let me explain: I find a spot about halfway between the tip and the first guide; there I measure the distance between the blank and the fishing line. Since the tip has flattened out, the distance directly between the tip and 1st guide will be slight, so this measurement isn't all that useful. Then, I find a spot about halfway between the first and second guide, where I again measure the distance between the blank and the fishing line. I do this between all the running guides, making sure that my meaurements increase just slightly between each guide. After eyeballing the angles, my measurements with the ruler help me do some very small changes in guide position. (Obviously, as guide height increases, your measurements will increase quite a bit, making the ruler method almost useless. But, for the running guides, it's nice.)

If you think about it, measuring the distance between the blank and fishing line is almost exactly the same thing as checking the angles on each of the guides. Just like you want a slight increase in the angles as you move down the rod, you want a slight increase in the distance between the blank and line. It's just easier to measure the distance between the blank and fishing line, than it is to measure the angles.

I cant do any of that stuff, unless my guides are already wrapped on the blank, the rod I just finished is a 5 1/2 foot trolling rod, set up for spinning, a tip and 3 guides. I used big rings to avoid any realy wackie angles. It's 6:30 here, I was just outside casting it in the dark, I managed to catch a rapala crankbait on the phone line over the street, but it cast great. Good balance, not too heavy even withthe unibutt. I think guides can be manipulated to do whatever you want, sans concepts, static deflection, pennies, but all those things give someone what they want, and It's interesting. More on guides. Levi Oh, and guides up? on a spinning rod? I don't get it. I mean, i got the instructions, I can see how it would work, just sounds weird.

I think that maybe two points should be made about what has been said above.
First,
If you flex a blank and look closely at it you will notice that the first few inches do not flex or bend therefore there is no stress and no guide is needed in this first few inches. I see many commercial rods that have the first guide much too close to the end, the worst possible place to be adding weight. This is particularly true of rods incorporating the Fuji New Concept System.
Second,
When setting up guides several of the systems used recommend that guides are placed close enough that when the rod is at maximum deflection the line does not touch the rod so as to avoid friction between the line and the rod. This makes no sense to me because under the conditions that the rod is at the maximum deflection the line is not moving so there can not be any friction between the line and the rod.
When casting and the rod is at maximum deflection the line is not moving. The line starts to move as the rod starts to straighten and the highest line velocity will be when the rod is practically straight. When fighting a fish and there is a high load on the rod the rod tip should be dropped to reel in line but when the rod is pulled up the line should be moving little if any at all.
When a fish makes a hard run the rod tip should be dropped to transfer the load more toward the butt of the rod where it flexes less.
So in no case should the line be touching the rod resulting in friction when the rod is at the maximum deflection.
On any rod that will be used for casting I set the guides up so that the line DOES touch the rod when the rod is at its maximum deflection. This results in one or two less guides, less weight, better performance and as a result an advantage over off the shelf rods.

I think Emory's first paragraph is one of the best I've seen lately. Several years ago I built a Sage XP 10' 7wt fly rod and really struggled with the static test. So I taped up guides per Sage's specs and it looked good and cast great - and it fishes superb. The unusual thing was the tip guides were spaced out considerably more than I was use to seeing - 5 7/8, 11 3/4, 18 1/4 was the spacings for the first 3 guides. Thanks Emory for reminding me of this.