I get the sense from what I've read here that most builders use permagloss to finish or refinish blanks, but not as a thread finish and was wondering why....too thin?

Hi Steven!
Permagloss does well as a thread finish especially if you do not want a high build up of finish. I use it often on bamboo.If you want a high build it will take many coats.

Many, Many, Many coats!!!

Bill in WV

Steven;
The only draw back I'm aware of is that PG offeres NO UV protection, so your colors will fade. But it sure does give a real nice retro look to the threads. Try it, you just might like it.

Fred Crum
Dixon, Ca.

A couple of months ago Tom Kirkman put some pictures up on the photo board of a thread wrap, with varying numbers of coats. I don't know how to link things here, but you can go to the photo section and look at his entries. With a lot of coats, it looked really good.

No finish offers UV protection to the thread, unless it turns brown. This Permagloss will not do.

It is an excellent thread coating, harder and more abrasion resistant than any epoxy, also more flexible. But even if you add additional coats and build great depth with it, it will not provide that smooth surface that epoxy does. It tends to have more of an "eggshell" look to it. Some like it, some don't. It's a matter or personal taste.

............

Ok, I just found the permagloss discussion/photo's. Somehow I missed it when it was going on. Exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks.

[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]

I agree 110% with what Tom and Bill have said. It does take many coats (>7). I would like to add one comment: Once you have applied 3 or 4 coats, if you increase the speed of your drying motor to more than 40 rpm (even up to 100 rpm) you get better leveling but you will still need to add multiple coats. Even then, It is difficult to get as smooth finish as compared to epoxy. As Tom said it is a matter of personal taste.

Ed Smith

How many coats of PermaGloss are actually necessary for good protection? I like the look of 3 or 4 coats better than with 8 coats.

Steven, I've gone to the method Stan Grace explained to me. I put one coat of Permagloss on the guide wraps and then my epoxy. It fills the tunnels well as it's like water off the brush. One time around the guide, leaving enough above the tunnels to fill them. I come back an hour later with the epoxy and get a great looking finish job without bubbles coming up from the tunnel area and know that I've got that great penetration and seal that I look for in guide wraps. Thanks, Stan, for giving me the idea.

I use quite the same finishing technique as Randy: one coat of Permagloss, then one more of Regular/Lite build coat of epoxy. The only difference is that I let Permagloss to set up for a couple of days or so, before applying a coat of epoxy

Pavel,
Moscow, RU

In an effort to keep weight to the minimum on my guides, I've been using Permagloss exclusively for guide coatings on all my rods for two years now. No, it's not as pretty as epoxy. But I'll take stronger and lighter over pretty every time. I love not having to mix it and the quick drying time.

When I build rods for myself permagloss is my finish of choice. Epoxy may look better for the first couple of years, but after that it is permagloss hands down. Permagloss will not completely fill the guide tunnels, it has to much solvent and the finish shrinks as it dries. If I am doing a large guide, I will sometimes coat with a heavy coat of epoxy (I use system three clear coat, very thin) and then brush it almost all off. I let the epoxy cure for a week and then apply 3-4 coats of permagloss to all the guides. The epoxy build a shelf for the guide to sit on. The epoxy is probably overkill. The stuff as nails.

When I build rods for myself permagloss is my finish of choice. Epoxy may look better for the first couple of years, but after that it is permagloss hands down. Permagloss will not completely fill the guide tunnels, it has to much solvent and the finish shrinks as it dries. If I am doing a large guide, I will sometimes coat with a heavy coat of epoxy (I use system three clear coat, very thin) and then brush it almost all off. I let the epoxy cure for a week and then apply 3-4 coats of permagloss to all the guides. The epoxy build a shelf for the guide to sit on. The epoxy is probably overkill. The stuff as nails.

Lighter finishes like permagloss and poly look very good after about 5 coats. You can still see and feel the texture of the thread, but I suspect they are plenty protected. Very hard to get that poured on look without using a heavier epoxy.

Good info, but I have to disagree with Tom on one small point. If the thread finish is stabilized with a package of UV absorbers, then those will help protect the threads, or any underlying surface as well as the bulk of the finish. Polymer films are often protected this way by applying surface coatings loaded with UV absorbers. The mechanism is similar to the way a sunscreen applied the surface of your skin works to absorb UV and reduce exposure to the surface.

There is an interesting twist though you would think that increasing the concentration of UV absorbers would be better, and it is as far as protection goes. But as usual there is a trade-off. Some of the more common light stabilizers can also be slightly reactive with epoxies. So in that case, depending on concentration, some of the UV stabilizers can significantly reduce the product shelf life.

markG

True, but these aren't part of our epoxies or other thread coatings. What you see added (when it is, in fact, added) is a product to stop UV degradation of the epoxy itself, not that which lies underneath it. The type product you mention is not, to my knowledge, added to any of the popular epoxy finishes used by rod builders today. These "additives" increase the price of the epoxy and sadly, most of the companies that source epoxy for thread wrap coatings won't pay the cost of having them added.

In fact, the rule that holds true on nearly all thread wrap coatings used in the past few decades is this - if your epoxy turns brown, it will retard the underlying thread from fading as quickly as it would otherwise under a very clear coating, such as Permagloss.

Andy Dear's new Threadmaster does have actual UV absorbers (perhaps of the type you mention) and it will interesting to see how thread underneath it will hold color over time. We know the finish will stay clear, but have no idea if the thread underneath will be protected from UV.

............

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the follow-up and those are all good points. I'll have to go back and look at some of the labeling on a few of the finishes that I have but off the top of my head, I think that the language that Flexcoat, Classic Coat, and one of the Gudebrod finishes at least implies that they may be employing UV absorbers. I think it's a good distinction to make between UV absorbers (UVAs) which can reduce color fading, vs. a stabilizer package that quenches degradation of the material itself, but doesn't effectively shield the substrate. It would be interesting to scan some of these finishes to see just how much they're absorbing.


I also agree that there is a cost factor. But these types of additive packages tend not to be cost prohibitive, and they do add value so I'm surprised they aren't used in more of the rodbuilding finishes.

mark

To my knowledge, they're only actually used in one to date - an absorber that is. I agree that a few nickels more per finish "kit" shouildn't be considered cost prohibitive, but in the current atmosphere of pricing wars, the companies selling rod finish pinch every penny they can.

........