I certainly don't know the history there. I'm a yankee transplant that never did any "popping" up north. I am not doubting Nathans advice and wouldn't mind trying one of those IP841's. Mudhole has them for $18. Can you Nathan or anyone else comment on what that blank is like compared to any of the blanks mentioned in this thread? Also the GraphiteUsa? Andy, I'm going to get a CTS, just need to make it over there or meet up with you. I think the old design is perfect for what it is intended. I think that styles have progressed ahead of the gear, at least mine has. I'm sure there are blanks out there to accomodate this, they are just not intended for it. Like that Seeker I mentioned. Thanks again for everyones input.

I have built numerous rods from both the Loomis and the Rainshadow HS9000s and find them to be almost identical except that the Rainshadow blanks are straighter than the typical Loomis.
The Hot Shot blanks were developed here in the Northwest for plug fishing from a boat. The light tip lets you see the plug's acion and the power in the butt works well for hook setting. Often the fish will hook himself. However, in my jugement they have a couple of disadvantages paricularly in applications where you are casting. 1. Because they are very fast actions less of the rods length is effectively used when casting. You, in effect, have a much shorter rod when casting. 2. Again because they are very fast actions they are much easier to break. All of the force on the rod is concentrated in a small portion of the rods tip section. The Hot Shot rods are probably the easiest of all the rod types to be broken from high sticking.

I have built numerous rods from both the Loomis and the Rainshadow HS9000s and find them to be almost identical except that the Rainshadow blanks are straighter than the typical Loomis.
The Hot Shot blanks were developed here in the Northwest for plug fishing from a boat. The light tip lets you see the plug's acion and the power in the butt works well for hook setting. Often the fish will hook himself. However, in my jugement they have a couple of disadvantages paricularly in applications where you are casting. 1. Because they are very fast actions less of the rods length is effectively used when casting. You, in effect, have a much shorter rod when casting. 2. Again because they are very fast actions they are much easier to break. All of the force on the rod is concentrated in a small portion of the rods tip section. The Hot Shot rods are probably the easiest of all the rod types to be broken from high sticking.

Guys, I'm not slinging mud at Cascade. I'm still interested in trying more of their blanks. I wish I had an IP841 to compare to this Loomis P841. I can tell you that the ISB841 is alot stiffer. I am as we speak holding a Loomis 9000 in one hand and the Cascade 9000 in the other. Close in length and weight, different in action. I can barely make the Cascade bend by "whipping" it whereas the Loomis flexes with ease. I don't know, maybe the retailer sent me the wrong blank. It's doubtful though, it had a sticker wrapped around the base that looked to be a manufacturers label and they are a reputable dealer. Just my 2 cents.

I sure hope you get the info that you needed from your original question. I sure am learning a lot. Great thread

We ought to start a G Loomis HS9000 fan club. Have caught more fish species on that blank than any other by far. Have it also in the GLX travel version, but it's not near the blank the GL3/IM6 blanks are.
Yeah, the Rainshadow is nothing like it.

I think I am getting the info just in a round about way which has turned out to be better. I'll sound biased when I say this but I'm part of that fan club.

Emory is correct about the high sticking, and ease of nreakage. The inherent design and taper of the hotshot does make it more prone to breakage.....unless you are using a CTS!!!

There are some proprietary construction methods Stephen is using to....well....not totally eliminate breakage, but shall we say enhance the durability of a high modulus "hinged" type taper.

Robert, if you're interested I still have some AllStar HS900 blanks that are very close to the Loomis.


Andy

I never was that big of a fan of AllStar. The few friends that I do fish with all have AllStars and Shimanos (I use an Abu Morrum), I call them clones. I guess I just have to be different. Plus I'm looking for something I'll be able to build for friends and potential customers in the future. Does anyone know what blank Gloomis uses for their Greenwater 9000c, I already know its a little too expensive for me right now but am wondering what material this rod is made of. Again thanks to everyone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2005 08:42PM by Robert Borgsmiller.

Andy: Fast tipped popping rods for guys who end up on a charter boat who do not fish a lot may not be the best thing since sliced bread. Most can not handle a trout or a redfish by themselves with a fast action or drop shot blank. The will break these things like peanut brittle. I understand where you are coming from but there is another side to the coin when you place rods in the hands of the general public. The rods you are describing need to be in the hands of someone who understands that high sticking can be bad for the builders wallet!

Gon Fishn



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2005 09:09PM by Bill Stevens.

I never said a fast tipped rod should be in everyone's hands. In fact if we are talking about the general angling public, I am not so sure that a custom rod of any sort should be in their hands. But for someone who is an experienced fisherman ( and it sounds like Robert is) who is looking for higher performance, and appreciates fine equipment, a faster action blank with a more complex taper is certainly a viable option that should be explored. Again, we are assuming that all construction processes are equal, and in the case of CTS it's not. Comparing an AllStar and a Rainshadow is one thing. Comparing a CTS and a Rainshadow is altogether something different...it's not comparing apples to apples. CTS utilizes a multi-modulus construction as well as a helical wind similiar to the GUSA, which makes for a very durable, very forgiving blank in terms of abuse and breakage.

Of course with any rod, fast action or not, there also needs to be a certain amount of customer education as well. And I'll tell you this Mr. Bill, if your client is educated about proper use and abuse, and he still high sticks the rod, it should be bad for HIS wallet, not the builders.
And I am assuming you meant a HotShot blank, and not a Dropshot blank....big BIG difference bewteen the two.

Andy

I want to thank all of you for some very educational reading. I am enamored with the Loomis popping 8400 GL3 I built for Lindy rigging walleyes - as well as the HS9000 Loomis and Shikari I built a friend initially for lindy rods - and we soon discovered the HS blanks made for very nice rods for long-line walleye trolling on MilleLacs. In fact - the P8400 I built caught me a 12.3 pound walleye this spring and the two HS blanks wound up catching two muskies over 50 inches within about a half an hour of each other last fall. Needless to say - I am impressed with the platform these types of blanks have displayed for a variety of different fishing situations... very versatile blanks indeed. Andy - I am curious now about applications of the CTS blanks for some of these freshwater applications... any further thoughts on the CTS applications for such uses?

One more note on the ISB cascade blanks - they are really built on an entirely different action than the popping blanks and the hotshot blanks. They are most similar to spin jig blanks in my mind - meaning they have no soft tip as these other styles of blanks do - instead they ramp up to full strength rather quickly and instead have rather powerful tips.
Chuck Ungs

I appreciate the compliment. I have done my fair share of fishing. I did mean for this to be an informative thread and I think that is what Bill is doing, providing information. The first time I fished with my HotShot was in the surf. It was the fastest action rod I'd ever used, and I wondered how it would handle a big fish. It didn't take long that day to get a hold of a full grown slimy gaftop, and I can't stand wasting time on those things. So what I did was to thumb the spool and give that rod all it could handle. I was assuming full responsibility for the potential repercussions. Needless to say, I was impressed. All that action with backbone(certainly not as much as a stiff rod, but it's there). To the contrary, I would say these blanks handle fish quite well and take alot more than most people think. Now, as a guide, which I am not, if you saw your client high sticking any rod would it not be your job as a guide to correct this and "guide" your client? I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as most of you are, but to me, real life expierience counts as much as an engineers estimations. Chuck your post beat mine. I'm editing. You guys here that? 50" Muskies! Thank you for the explanation on the ISB's. Education sometimes doesn't come cheap. In this case it did. $20 per rod. I'm not complaining.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2005 12:01AM by Robert Borgsmiller.

Chuck,
Great post, and good analogy on the spin/jig rods...I would not have thought of that.

I have often thought HotShot style blanks and fast action popping rod blanks would make great Walleye rods. I think the CTS would fit right in with what you're doing and really excel. I think Putter might have some experience with the CTS in a walleye application. I know he has a CTS or 2 in his arsenal, but I don't know what he's using 'em for.

Let's talk more about this off-board.

Andy

Hey Robert,
Can you imagine if we had 50" musky that tailed on the flats in 6' of water down here in the Laguna....wouldn't that be a hoot?


ANdy

Indeed. Now that I'm thinking breakage, I'm wondering if my earlier mentioned 7'6" croaker special was a HotShot. That may explain the tip breaking on that jack.

I think that the comparisons of other blanks to the CTS is a valid comparison. Multi-modulus construction is actually becoming quite common and in fact a number of the blanks from several manufacturers are using it. It is not a big secret. And in fact some of the Rainshadow blanks also are multi-modulus.
As far as the helical construction is concerned, when the fiber is at an angle relative to lenthwise on the blank, as is the case with helical construction, the effective modulus drops very quickly. At 45 degrees the modulus is effectively cut in half. However, the strain energy or toughness does not increase by alligning the fiber at an angle as it would increase if a lower modulus fiber were used because the modulus is a property of the material itself. When the fiber is at an angle the hoop strength or the strength at 90 degrees, the strength against torque and crush or sheer does increase but that is what the scrim in a blank is for. The fiber in the scrim, usually glass which has about 4 times the strain energy or toughness of graphite, is at an angle to the blanks length for hoop strength. You could accomplish the same thing that helical construction accomplishes by increasing the amount of fiber in the scrim a little with the added advantage over helical construction that the strain energy or toughness would increase. But the problem with increasing the fiber content in the scrim or the amount of scrim is that the blanks efficiency or the stiffness divided by the weight drops. Again I do not think that this is a big secret or is proprietary to any manufacturer. In fact, if it were not for the above problem I think that probably most blank manufacturers would be using the helical design.

I disgaree with most of what you said Emory...but then again, that seems to be par for the course for you and I.


Andy

Emory you said "I think that the comparisons of other blanks to the CTS is a valid comparison"

I absolutely agree if we are discussing on the water performance.

I absolutely disagree if were discussing construction methods, attention to detail and quality control.

As for all of the engineering jargon.....it just confuses my RedNeck brain.

Andy

Andy,
It is certainly your right to disagree and my mind is not closed. Let's hear your argument about their superior construction methods. I have to say though that I can be persuaded with facts or by a logical agrument but not with just opinion or marketing hype.