OK

Why are so many people using snake guides on fly rods ???
" If " they are inferiour to single foot guides wire or ceramics - how come so many places I look - I read how it seems that 99% of companies and even builders are using them ???

What ever happened to " performance " ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2005 10:27AM by bill boettcher.

Old habits die hard and snake guides will certainly work and get the job done. They're also very inexpensive compared to even the least expensive ceramics.

For most commercial rod operations, performance will always have to take a back seat to sales. Most fishermen expect to see snake guides on fly rods so the makers comply. That will change, but it will take a few more years yet.

.............

"Why are so many people using snake guides ... IF they are inferior" to ring guides?

"Tradition! ... Tradition!" says the Fiddler on the Roof.
"Ignorance" says the Prophet of the New World Order.
"Preference" says the fly rod builder with customers to please.
"Stupidity" says the wife who doesn't understand any of this in the first place.
"Unbelief" says Sir Isaak Walton from beyond the grave.
And "ALL of the ABOVE" says the guy who makes or sells them !

LOL, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

I hate to follow, but if I want to sell I put " performance " out the window ?
I never learned how to be greedy, got to change ??

Darn shame if you ask me. Took me two days to figure I would put the guides on the top of a casting rod - only figuring I may want to sell it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2005 10:59AM by bill boettcher.

What Tom and Cliff said. Fly rods have always been built with snakes, so that is what people generally expect/want. In the end, it comes down to "the customer is right". Make your case known, then decide if you are willing to put your name on the rod. IMO, a lost sale is worth the price compared to reputation. Personally, if somebody wants something that I am not comfortable with, I won't do it. Right or wrong, only you can decide. Compromise comes with the job in many cases but you are the one that draws the line.

Bill - you can advise a customer that a ring guide really would perform better than a snake guide - and then leave the choice to him. That doesn't sound like misleading the customer or greed to me. ... And the simple chrome snake guides are less expensive than almost any suitable ring guide. So if you build with snakes, you can retain or rebate the savings. But nobody is gonna get rich on the meager savings between snake guides and ring guides. -Cliff Hall+++

P.S. - Since snake guides are double-footed, they'll take longer to grind & wrap, and use more thread & epoxy. So, there goes the ~$1 savings in price per guide, verses a Fuji CLAG, transferred to additional labor & supplies. Maybe snakes are MORE expensive on that basis, and on missing the chance to make a better performing little "cannon". IMO, -Cliff Hall+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2005 03:46PM by Cliff Hall.

Custom rod builders should not be targeting the status quo for their customer base. Look for those fishermen who are wanting something better than they can get from the factory and just be glad the factories use snakes and build casting rods with the guides on top of the rod. This leaves the really serious guys as customers for your superior custom rods and knowledge.

What do they say -
No. 1 customer is always right
No. 2 if customer is wrong - refer to No. 1

This was a huge issue a couple of years ago in this forum. Although I've put single-foot ceramics on all my fly rods, I've come to understand why some people still prefer snakes:
(1) They are lighter, except for the lightest Ti-frame ceramics (which are expensive). If I were building a 3-wt or lighter I'd probably go with snakes.
(2) they don't snag as much as ceramics (or single-foot 'snakes'), and thus are more durable.
(3) and, of course, tradition.

G Loomis has been selling many fly rods with wire ring guides for a long time. I'm certain the sales number in the thousands so old habits can be broken but the product has to be pushed to be accepted in the market place.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Bill,
while the customer is right, when it comes to what they want, ultimately it is up to you whether or not you want to be the one to give them what they want. When it comes to components, you can tell them what is better or best for the money, but some folks may be unwilling to change. I may be wrong, thoughI really doubt it, but I don't think anybody is showing off their new, custom built rod to their buddies and telling them "Yeah, the builder told me I should go with something better, but I really wanted "this".."

I don't do this for a living, so I have luxury of suggesting that it is okay to say NO on occasion. Just a general comment. I generally will not build fly rods for a paying customer, so I haven't been in this exact situation, which means I'm not sure where I would stand if it were me, but overall, if I'm not comfortable with putting my name on a rod, I will send them to another builder.

Bill, I started building rods nearly 25 years ago after watching the tip of my factory baitcaster with guides on top trying to go to the bottom of the rod. I built my first rod as a spiral-on my own. I have never built a bait casting rod with guides on top nor will I. There's some things that as a builder of custom rods that I just won't do. Each of us has to decide what we're willing to do.
The customer is always right, sometimes he's just not gonna be MY customer...

Putter
Williston, ND

I hear ya randy, and guys. Just I saw the link that Cliff had on his last post of the Guide spacing formula. As soon as I clicked on it I read some one static testing snake guides.
Guess what ever sells --- to a point !!
Heck I could fill up 3-4 pages on my site just trying to explain pro's and con's on guides and different ways to set them up, better ways. But then I would have no room for pictures ??

Thanks guys

I deleted my Post-Script from here and appended it to my first Reply above. Over, -Cliff Hall+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2005 03:52PM by Cliff Hall.

Your right ! less finish, more prduction, more rods sold ??!!

I'm going to disagree with some of you.

I have 4 Dan Craft SigV rods (call me crazy, but I'm brand loyal and a stickler for trying to eek the most out of a design concept). Actually, two of these live as permanent loaners to friends, as I can only fish one rod at a time.

One rod has Fuji Ti frame ceramic guides.
One rod has Fuji Ti stripper and tiptop, with single foot TiCh in between
One rod has Fuji Ti stripper, Ti wire tiptop, with single foot TiCh in between
One rod has PacBay stripper, TiCh tiptop, and single foot TiCh in between

I can tell the difference among all of these rods. My observation is that you can definitely feel tiny weight differences the farther out on the rod you get. In fact, I challenge all rod builders to simply change tiptops from all Ti wire to TiCh to chrome to ceramic. I think you will be able to tell the difference on distance casting and rod recovery.

Snakes (I have put them on this blank as well) tend to slow down the action of the blank but are very useful if you fish in the wintertime. I just returned from a week in Montana fishing fall run browns in Yellowstone Park. The air temps were about 20-25F in the morning. My single foot wire guides iced up far sooner than my fishing companion's, who had snakes. However, for all-'round rods I prefer slightly oversized single foot wire guides with Ti tiptop.

For an interesting experiment in just how different a rod feel can be with ceramics, build up 3 wt rod with ceramics versus wire guides. With the light weight 3 wt blank, the ceramics will make the rod feel like a 60's Cadillac in terms of handling.

Mark Li

Added weight does indeed slow the reaction and recovery time (not the action, however). I've used nothing but ceramics for 20 years or more but none of my rods feel like a 60's Cadillac. Of course, this is probably because I use small guides and very short wraps. As pointed out in the RodMaker article done by Emory Harry a few issues back, the thread and finish can weigh nearly as much as a small guide. Two wraps on snakes usually negates any weight savings over ceramics which only require one wrap. What you use is just as important as how you use it.

..............

Bill... My two cents worth... The fish don't know what kind of guides you're using, where you bought them, or how much they cost. Most of us can't cast worth beans anyway, so a couple of extra feet doesn't matter. I think it was McGuane who said he's always enjoyed going to the river to watch poor casters outfish great casters. So, there you have it. Tradition reigns. Regards, Vance

Another advantage of snakes along with weight & icing up of guides, is the larger opening that allows more freedom for big knots to pass through. Particularly important with shooting head arrangments etc.

I am still new to serious rod building but I am making my fly rods with a mixture of snakes/ceramics to decide for myself what I really like, this will probably be a long decision!

Back in the eighties Composite Developments (CD) in New Zealand were selling fly rods with ceramics, well some at least because I bought one & I still have it. I did not know the pros & cons of the ceramics/wire/snake debate at the time. It seemed a good rod and at the time I liked it and it did the job. CD along with Kilwell all seem to be ceramic strippers & single foot wire these days. I think I remember a post some time ago (could have been Tom K.) where some US production rods were 100% ceramic may have been in the eighties also. Maybe there is a marketing lesson here...don't know.

Interesting topic and no doubt the debate will go on for some time. As an aside both Bob Popovics & Dan Blanton two well know saltwater fly guys who no doubt you are aware of more than me are both strongly in favour of snakes and will not have a bar of ceramics.

For me I am keeping an open mind, maybe using snakes when knots and icing of guides is an issue, otherwise ceamics, therefore the choice could be based on application, just an idea that may work for me as I progress.

I don't mean to mess with the 800lb gorilla, but I must disagree with Tom K. I don't think the advantages of ceramics outweigh the overwhelming increase in weight due to the ring and longer wraps on the longer foot. Again, I challenge builders on this forum to be experimentalists, and build identical blanks with different guide types, being honest about performance and casting. I know I get into trouble on this board, especially with the engineers and physicists, but I value the "feel" of a rod when I fish. I generally fish in situations that require accurate presentations at 50-70 feet, so it matters to me how well a rod works as a fishing tool. I am also a stickler for how a rod "feels" as I'm casting. I suppose I get into trouble because "feel" is difficult to quantify. I can't offer much of a scientific argument to exactly why ceramics feel different on a blank, but I am absolutely convinced about this. I must admit that it is not very satisfying to my scientific side, but I remember what someone on my thesis committee said when I defended my degree "maybe what you're seeing isn't being described well by theory yet..."

Mark Li