Cliff, Reading that article was almost as much fun as offshore Tuna fishing. Like when you get a triple knock-down. Wow, thanks
Here is a link to "The Mathmatics of Fly Fishing"
[www.stevehaley.com]
You can follow the links to the authors site.
Gees, I just signed on to find out how to make a planer rod.

THANKS TO ALL for making this Thread such a productive discussion. I didn't get stoned this time, and nobody got pie in the face. And all the podium pounding was very reasonable and with great perspective. Gratefully, Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

Mick McComesky: Thanks for the “wing the mother” humour.

Steve Kartalia: Thanks for the early morning cheery feedback.

Tom Kirkman (Moderator): Thanks for your voice of experience, very practical perspective and supportive comments. Also, for your point that the cumulative effect of all our limit improvements can really add up to make our rods premium.

Robert Duncan: Thanks for suggesting a DEMOnstration be made available in Charlotte, NC next February 2006.

Tim Collins: Thanks for the reminder that Load Distribution and the Static Test should be the dominant, if not the ultimate, determiner of guide placement.

Bilge Gburek: Wow, Thanks! Your comments were especially pertinent, like you have been reading my mind. You are asking all the right questions as far as I am concerned. It’s one thing to have a strong opinion, but all these methods are reasonably subjective, and hopefully co-operative – not competitive or precluding towards the others. Your suggestion of a head to head blinded study comparing formula wraps verses interactive methods is very interesting. Sounds exactly like a drug study / clinical trials to me! (Who’s gonna pay for it!) Anything short of that is somewhere between an anecdote, opinion, conjecture, and a preference.

Ralph Jones: Thanks for your reminder that “the Static Distribution Test method is 'where it's at' concerning guide placement.”

Doug Moore: Thanks for the Reader’s Digest version of “How to Wrap a Rod with TCRods”. Thank God for eyeballs & hands that can see & feel what needs to be done. And your tutorial comments on progressively loading the blank and spacing the guides in 1/3rds sections of the rod blank, from the tip into the handle.

Tom Juster: Thanks for your incisive comments. I think that loading tests should include the highest stress you may encounter. Witness a recent Post by Billy Vivona, Spiral Wrap Breakage ... 10-16-05 ... [www.rodbuilding.org] . This rod could have failed on the water if enough drag had not been applied in testing. Moving or changing or adding just one or two guides seems to have been all the remedy that was needed.

Also, Tom Juster, your comments about the statistical significance of a small sample size comparison STRIKE AT THE HEART of any such comparison. From what you have said, I can guarantee that such a study wouldn’t hold up for 5 minutes in the hands of someone trained to do a Chi-Squared Test or a Students-T Test. Or whatever else it was that I spent 16 weeks studying as part of a course in the Bio-Statistics and the Critical Analysis of Clinical & Pharmaceutical Research. Any time the variance within a set of data exceeds the difference between the two sets of data being compared, I don’t need my calculator or a set of T or Chi or Z Tables. The only supportable conclusion is that you CANNOT conclude that there is any real difference between the two groups. PERIOD. That’s OBJECTIVITY. To say anything else is SELLING SOMETHING, and like our mamas told us, that ain’t the truth, that’s ADVERTISING. Believe with your eyes open, if you want to. But be careful about proclaiming it as gospel, or swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.

And, Tom Juster, I think your comments on the realities of test casting are timeless and priceless. Test casting is not always very convenient. Distances may be hard to judge. Casts may be subject to poor reproducibility. And line flow for mid-range casts may be the most important performance to watch. What if it’s a cold winter day and your monofilament nylon line starts acting like single-strand wire? It’s a long time until the spring thaw and you need to finish this rod now, while you are between holidays and the spring run of fish. … Test casting hardly ever seems to be a definitive process. It eliminates the worst misconstruction. But as far as being an instrument for fine-tuning, that seems to exceed its resolving power. But I live in the city in an apartment. Most of the time, it’s hard to find a place to go where a full cast will not be a nuisance to me or a danger to someone else. Somebody’s dog may run across my line or snatch up my sinker, and then guess who’s gonna get the blame for Fido swallowing my lead or cracking a tooth? And Frisbee Boy or Marathon Girl isn’t gonna buy me a new spool of line if Fido chews my line in half while he’s getting it off his leg. I used to live right next to a grassy grammar school field. But now, whenever I need to go, it seems like it’s either too early or too late to see what’s going on, because that’s the only time the park is empty. Only a trip to the lake seems to work, and that just puts it into the “road-trip” category. … Just an easier said than done proposition, for some people’s situations.

Bill Stevens: Thanks again. Replied extensively above.

William Colby: Thanks for the reminder that equal-intervals is a very useful method, too (especially near the tip, IMO –CMH).

Paul Gibson: Thanks for your reminder not to get lost in an alternate method when a little more perseverance in an interactive-intuitive method should pay off.

Steve Haley: THANK YOU for the Link to this 58 page collection *.PDF (640Kb) of Articles, “The Mathematics (and Physics) of Fly Fishing”. Now THAT is science and math in action. It restored my belief in the theory of Intelligent Design. B) ... I'm glad you liked our mini-tome here. … Thanks, Cliff+++

Thanks again, Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2005 07:48AM by Cliff Hall.

There will be plenty of people doing guide placement at the National show in Charlotte. Jim Upton will have the basics in his seminars on general rod building and Rich Forhan will discuss it in his seminar on the Revolver Rod. Beyond that, it's just a matter of asking. I'll have plenty of stuff in the RodMaker booth for demonstrating the New Guide Concept System.

.............

And special "Thanks!" to Owen McLean, who e-mailed me this timeless quote on “Guide Religion” from the BRMC Forum - [www.BambooRodMaking.Com]. It was written by RUSS GOODING of GoldenWitch.Com. You can see the entire article entitled “Guide Placement” for yourself at this link, and compare it to the Post & Replies made above. [www.BambooRodMaking.Com]

"Guides & guide spacing are a lot like religion. Some folks like it this way, some folks like it that way, almost everybody has at least a little, some have way too much, and a few have none at all. By starting a discussion on guides, anyone's strongly held position is likely to violate the fundamental beliefs of at least three other sects. Trying to determine truth in matters of faith will lead to mayhem and bloodshed. However, if we could all drop our guard for a day, admit that we are first and foremost devotees of the List, then we could have a nice ecumenical discussion on guides before reconvening later armed for battle." -Russ Gooding- B) B) B)

“For angling may be said to be so like the Mathematics, that it can never be fully learnt; at least not so fully, but that there will still be more new experiments left for the trial of other men that succeeds us.” Izaak Walton, Epistle to the Reader.

"I have a wacky system for guide placement. I assemble the rod and lay it on my bench. Then I start placing guides next to the rod. I stand back and just look at it. And when the number, size and placement "looks Ok," I mark the guide locations with a crayon. It’s all by a gut feeling." –John Long (from BRMC). B) B) B)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2005 09:25AM by Cliff Hall.

That site only deals with bamboo FLY rods. These are pretty easy to do since the reel doesn't function on the cast. So no accomodation for the reel has to be made. Casting and spinning rods are whole different ball of wax.

I just loved the irony and humor in going from a 58 page engineer's article, filled with many very serious equations, to a "wacky system" that uses a crayon to mark the blank; and the similarity of guide placement theory to religion and a gut-feeling. LOL, -Cliff Hall+++

How about roller guides troling rods?

I would start with a complete set of 5 guides + 1 Roller tip, that is matched for the Line Class rating of your rod blank. You can find these sets of recommended Roller Guides in the Supplier Catalogs. One guide manufacturer's (Aftco's) website is www.AFTCO.Com.

The various makers of standard Line Class rated Trolling rod blanks tend to have fairly similar taper-action for a given material composition (usually 100% FiberGlass, E = "Electrical" grade. [S = "Structural"].). So, these sets of guides are pretty reliable as the right size of guides. ... Now to your question of a guide placement - how far apart to space them.

Since casting is usually not an issue with a trolling rod, the main determinant of the guide placement is your Static Deflection / Load Distribution Testing. For an intial placement, you can use the Geometric Progression Equation. But, chances are, that by the time you solve for D, or re-try another value for T, you could just as easily - and more quickly and just as reliably - eyeball the situation and get a First Approximation for guide placement that way. If you find some Tables for guide placement, that may help. Dale P. Clemens' book The NEW Advanced Custom Rod Building, discusses the general considerations for Roller Guide Placement on pages 193-194. There are no Guide Spacing Tables in Clemens; neither in the original ACRB (1978), nor in the NewACRB (1987)

If you are building a live-bait casting rod with roller guides, then you'll definitely be needing 1 or 2+ more of the smaller sized Roller Guides to accommodate the extra fast taper in the tip section of that rod blank. Spacing in this situation is especially critical because of the greater arcing in the tip section. When you actually do the Loading Distribution for this rod, you really want to make sure that you PROGRESSIVELY LOAD the upper 1/3 of the rod blank, then the middle 1/3, then the lower 1/3 of the rod blank, keeping the line CLEAR of the rod blank and the walls of the guide frame itself.

... If you want to spiral wrap a roller-guide rod, you'll need to get the Spiral Roller Guides: @#$%& "ACID ROLLER GUIDES" (TM), invented by JOHN MANTELE, manufactured by ALL AMERICAN TACKLE - [www.allamericanrollerguides.com] . Available thru MudHole, et al. Some spacing recommendations can definitely be found by using the RBO SEARCH Feature for SUBJECT + MESSAGE BODIES [all dates] = Acid Roller, etc. Or AUTHORS = John Mantele, Neil Faulkner, Steve Purcell, Jay Lancaster, et al.

Since roller guides tend to be relatively expensive, at ~ $10 for the smallest size roller to ~ $50 for the heavier stipper guides, you probably just want to order one set of 5 guides + 1 extra of the smallest size (~ $10-15), in case your blank needs it, or your handle configuration is unusual. If you don't buy an extra one of the small guides up front, then you may have to wait 10 days for a re-order, if you feel you need another guide. Or you can just live with the assumption that your rod blank and overall design is very conformable to the usual set-ups, and will perform just fine with the usual number of 5 roller guides + 1 roller tip.

Best Wishes, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

I would start with a complete set of 5 guides + 1 Roller tip, that is matched for the Line Class rating of your rod blank. You can find these sets of recommended Roller Guides in the Supplier Catalogs. One guide manufacturer's (Aftco's) website is www.AFTCO.Com.

The various makers of standard Line Class rated Trolling rod blanks tend to have fairly similar taper-action for a given material composition (usually 100% FiberGlass, E = "Electrical" grade. [S = "Structural"].). So, these sets of guides are pretty reliable as the right size of guides. ... Now to your question of a guide placement - how far apart to space them.

Since casting is usually not an issue with a trolling rod, the main determinant of the guide placement is your Static Deflection / Load Distribution Testing. For an initial placement, you can use the Geometric Progression Equation. But, chances are, that by the time you solve for D, or re-try another value for T, you could just as easily - and more quickly and just as reliably - eyeball the situation and get a First Approximation for guide placement that way. If you find some Tables for guide placement, that may help. Dale P. Clemens' book The NEW Advanced Custom Rod Building, discusses the general considerations for Roller Guide Placement on pages 193-194. There are no Guide Spacing Tables in Clemens; neither in the original ACRB (1978), nor in the NewACRB (1987)

If you are building a live-bait casting rod with roller guides, then you'll definitely be needing 1 or 2+ more of the smaller sized Roller Guides to accommodate the extra fast taper in the tip section of that rod blank. Spacing in this situation is especially critical because of the greater arcing in the tip section. When you actually do the Loading Distribution for this rod, you really want to make sure that you PROGRESSIVELY LOAD the upper 1/3 of the rod blank, then the middle 1/3, then the lower 1/3 of the rod blank, keeping the line CLEAR of the rod blank and the walls of the guide frame itself.

... If you want to spiral wrap a roller-guide rod, you'll need to get the Spiral Roller Guides: @#$%& "ACID ROLLER GUIDES" (TM), invented by JOHN MANTELE, manufactured by ALL AMERICAN TACKLE - [www.allamericanrollerguides.com] . Available thru MudHole, et al. Some spacing recommendations can definitely be found by using the RBO SEARCH Feature for SUBJECT + MESSAGE BODIES [all dates] = Acid Roller, etc. Or AUTHORS = John Mantele, Neil Faulkner, Steve Purcell, Jay Lancaster, et al.

Since roller guides tend to be relatively expensive, at ~ $10 for the smallest size roller to ~ $50 for the heavier stripper guides, you probably just want to order one set of 5 guides + 1 extra of the smallest size (~ $10-15), in case your blank needs it, or your handle configuration is unusual. If you don't buy an extra one of the small guides up front, then you may have to wait 10 days for a re-order, if you feel you need another guide. Or you can just live with the assumption that your rod blank and overall design is very conformable to the usual set-ups, and will perform just fine with the usual number of 5 roller guides + 1 roller tip.

Best Wishes, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2005 11:05AM by Cliff Hall.