Hi

I wunder if someone can tell me where I can find a detailed discription of the Fuji New Guide Concept. Searched the net and can only find short discriptions.

Thanks for all replys

Mikael

Go the online library on this very site and read the article on the New Guide Concept. I think you'll find it even better than what Fuji offers. The button is up above the forum here and to the far right.

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Mikael,

If you go to this link: [www.fujitackle.com.au] click on "Education" and then "New Guide Concept". You'll see a set of descriptions and some cartoons depicting the 7 claims that Fuji makes regarding the New Concept guides and system. Fuij also publishes New Concept guide placement charts for baitcasting and spinning rods.

Mark

Those charts, of course, can't work very well. They violate the very concept which the concept is based upon - they have no idea what size reel you have or what handle length you've chosen. Do keep that in mind.


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As Tom said, Fuji's method/spacing totally negates the advantage that the system has which is based on line path/reel size which will vary from reel to reel. All their system does is give you a rod with generic guide size/spacing which offers no advantage.


Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!

The Fuji charts for guide placement are recommendations only and are just a reference for a starting point.

I've got a few St. Croix factory rods, including LEs, that use the Concept spacing and not surprisingly, they do work quite well. I'm sure a custom builder could make some measurable improvements, depending on the rod action and type of fishing.

mark

Actually, none of the St. Croix rods use the New Guide Concept - they only use the New Concept Guides. There is a difference. Take a look down through the butt guide at the intersect guide. The line has to follow a terrible course taking it up and down instead of along a straight path. In true New Guide Concept placement, each ensuing guide ring is perfectly and concentrically framed by each preceeding ring.

As much as I like St. Croix and their products, their guide sizing, placement and spacings are absolutely horrendous.


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Hi Tom,

I guess when it all boils down, it might be somewhat a matter of definition. I understand the distinction you're making between simply using the concept guides and employing the Fuji Concept System, and I'd be a bit surprised if St. Croix doesn't understand the difference as well. St. Croix advertises that they use the Fuji "Concept Guide System" and I've got a couple of their factory rods that employ the exact number and identical spacing as the Fiji new recommended spacing charts. I also have a number or their rods that employ spacing and progressions within mm of the Fuji recommended guidelines. Not to say that these set-ups are optimized, but they do fish quite well. Probably for the same reasons that the spiral wrap works well, and we're in agreement about the flexibility and forgiveness of most lines.

I guess what I'm wondering is if the concentric ring set-up with the straight line path to the intersect is Fuji's published system, or is that a Rodbuilder improvement on their basic system? When I map the line path in the Fuji recommended set-up, I don't get any up and down, but rather a slow parabolic curve down from the guide tops and an even slower curve from the guides at the bottom to the intersect. I'm not sure that this shape of choking the line down is fundamentally unsound, but the rods I've fished that are set with the Fuji recommendations cast and fish very well.

The Concept System isn't just about how the guides are set for casting and there are 7 parts that encompass issues around sensitivity, balance, stress distribution, line angle under load, power delivery, etc . Maybe there's something more specific published from Fuji on the idealized spacing in the Concept system, but I would argue that if the builder uses concept guides and follows the general principles of the System, then they are using the Concept System.

Mark

You can take a spinning reel and put it on an old casting rod and it will still cast pretty well. Fishing line is very forgiving. I would hope custom rod builders would be aiming a little higher than that, however.

If you use the spacing and sizing that Fuji shows on their recommendation chart, you'll end up with a line path that is not at all what they specify as being ideal in their explanation of the system. It is somewhat ironic that their two mentions of the system are opposed to one another. But their recommended spacing chart is for those builders who do not want to learn about how to meet the criteria for what makes an optimum guide set up - they're for the guys who want a paint by the numbers approach - a model airplane kit type approach. And, like it or not, that probably accounts for the majority of people who will build a rod this year.

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Yes, I agree with you on your last points.

Although I'm sure a custom builder can do better on each rod, perfect and improve the systems so to speak, I'd still expect quite high performance on an upper end factory rod. I suppose you could argue that either way is correct by definition, but personally I think it's performance that matters....and that's where custom would have an edge.

I have seen manufacturers who claim to use the New Concept System and they're not even remotely close in number, sizes, and spacing of guides....they play off the concept guides themselves and really don't begin to capture the spirit of the System as a whole. But I wouldn't include St. Croix in that particular group.

Good discussion,

mark

I am a big fan of St. Croix but their use of the "Fuji Concept System, which in itself does nothing to enhance the performance of the rod but is a great example of effective marketing of a guide series and hype, cannot be all that effective when it doesn't take things like reel, line, etc into the equation.
Assuming that there is an optimal set up for every different rod configuration, then how can every 6 1/2 foot rod have the same configuration when the reel used plays such a part in determining line path jigging rod??

I am a big fan of St. Croix but their use of the "Fuji Concept System, which in itself does nothing to enhance the performance of the rod but is a great example of effective marketing of a guide series and hype, cannot be all that effective when it doesn't take things like reel, line, etc into the equation.
Assuming that there is an optimal set up for every different rod configuration, then how can every 6 1/2 foot rod have the same configuration when the reel used plays such a part in determining line path ??

Mike,

That's probably why they use the more basic set-ups, since they are factory rods, they can't possibly know what the line and reel are going to be. What you're getting at are the fundamental differences between a factory rod and a custom built. You can't ask the factory rod to be something that it isn't. It sounds as if your saying that the only rod with a Concept System is a custom one whereby the basic Concept System is fine-tuned or further improved on.

My main point is that just because the Concept Systems that are set-up around the general guidelines are not perfected or improved with the guidelines of the System itself, doesn’t mean they aren't taking significant advantage of many elements. I'd say that I've seen much worse guide sets and designs (compared to the generalized New Concept System) on many many factory rods.

mark

I realize that it's just my opinion, but I think that the only thing that benefits from the Fuji system is Fuji's bottom line!! A perfect example of how a name brand can through out some charts and graphs, proclaim that it's the best thing since sliced bread and people will buy into it!! Just because a company says it's so, doesn't really make it so!! Marketing is the name of the game!!! For instance - I'm a big fan of American Tackle products but when they came out with the Titans (very Good guides), they prclaimed in all their ads that they were 65% lighter. The reaction among builders was WOW, these new guides are way lighter!! What they should have asked was 65% lighter than WHAT???? Anything can be said to be 65% lighter than something. I personally know some builders who don't own a scale or have any idea how much any guide weighs, highly recommend them as being lighter!!

Off the soapbox and in case you're wondering, I think that Fuji and AmTac are excellant high quality products

Mike

Mike,

Your point is well taken and I know exactly what you're saying. Check this out as a classic example....look at the five claims of "Higher" on the opening page lol: [www.froghairfishing.com]


I think Fuij at one point was claiming something like a 5X increase in sensitivity with the Concepts, which is pretty much impossible to imagine given the physics involved. You definitely have to cut through the hype to see what's really there.

Mark,
Perfect example!!! Anyone who wonders why companies spend so much on marketing, shouldn't. It works!!!!

Mike

Tom really tweaked the whole Concept thing to get maximum benefits. I use this system exclusively now, and it works brilliantly. The rods cast like sniper rifles. I just redid a friend's rod. It originally had Fuji Alconites spaced according to the spacing charts. I stripped it, repositioned it using TK's "Guide concept", and then tweaked size and spacings. The rod now casts well, fishes well and looks good too.