Hello everyone,

Well I have a question about permagloss..
I have sanded down two 10' surf rods and now I need to get them back too
the gloss black they where. If I use Permagloss and a black pigment,
will this take care of it ? I need to get these blanks back to there shine so that I can wrap them, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Glen

Glen,If you did`nt sand off the color and only dulled it the Permagloss will restore the shine.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

Glen - I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say you "sanded" the rod blank, and exactly "how much" or "how deeply" you did it. Also, what is the blank you're talking about - material and / or model number. What to do, or not to do, depends a bit on if the material is fiberglass or graphite. And, if graphite, then the kind of finish or coating / outer layer. Or if you sanded over or down into the raw graphite fibers.

At the risk of seeming pedantic, please let me list all this information in one entry

Read these articles before you finish re-working an old rod blank:

(1) LIBRARY: REFINISHING ROD BLANKS by Ralph O'Quinn. RMM-2(3)
Originally appeared in RodMaker Magazine, Volume 2, Issue # 3.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

(2) LIBRARY: SURFACE PREPARATION by Ralph O'Quinn. RMM-5(2).
Originally appeared in RodMaker Magazine, Volume 5, Issue # 2.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Back-issues of RMM can be ordered on-line, for $7 each, at:
[www.rodmakermagazine.com] or by using the link at left in the List of Sponsors.

You can use a varnish or polyurethane or Permagloss for your re-finish. Basically it is critical to know that you CANNOT use most of your ordinary 2-part epoxy Thread Finishes (Flex Coat, etc.) and expect to have the best results. The CASTING RESINS, which is what EPOXY THREAD finishes are, will not properly wet and adhere to the rod blank, but tend to make it an uneven mess and prone to peeling. KLASS KOTE (not Glass Coat) is an epoxy rod paint that can be used to finish rods and have pigment added. Clemen's CRYSTAL COAT is another 2-part epoxy which will adhere well to the rod blank and perform well with pigment added. ... [P.S. - It has been pointed out to me via e-mail that, when thinned with lacquer thinner, some epoxy thread finishes can work as a rod blank re-finish coat. My intent in this paragraph is to offer legitimate cautions, and not to address additional exceptions to these guidelines, as based on a small sample of success, especially when no details for brands or proportions or techniques are given or long-term durability results are reported.]

PERMAGLOSS (PG) is a one-part MOISTURE-CURING URETHANE in a XYLENE solvent. It dries fast and hard and very clear and is very durable. It lays out thinly and may take several coats to achieve a deeper look or thicker coating. To re-finish a rod blank, you can apply with a disposable black foam brush. Wet and pull the blank thru a hole in the center. Or partially fill a funnel shaped coffee filter and pull the blank down thru a starter hole. Use PG with ventilation and not while smoking.

You can add pigment to PG if you wish. Again, PG is among the clearest finishes on the market and does not yellow. Pigment from Testor's paint works. Pour off the vehicle and add to PG - MIX WELL. Ask the Marble-izing Men for more details on pigments. You can add a black pigment to PG for a deep, rich, high luster finish that obliterates the blank's texture. More coats will thicken the protection and deepen the look. Or you can skip the pigment, and apply the plain PG, and just display the underlying blank texture if you like.

Hopefully, Glen, things are fine with the way the blank was sanded, and all you need to do is PG (+pig?) it. Best Wishes, Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

If Putter is around, (and not bow hunting yet), he's great with the pigment questions and is another guy I can think of who has used PG as described above. -CMH+++



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2005 01:30AM by Cliff Hall.

P.S. - It has been pointed out to me via e-mail that, when thinned with lacquer thinner, some epoxy thread finishes can work as a rod blank re-finish coat. My intent in the above Reply is to offer legitimate cautions. It is not to address additional exceptions to these guidelines, as based on a small sample of success, especially when no details for brands or proportions or techniques are given, or long-term durability results are reported.

I am trying to articulate a body of advice that can be used, by a careful rod-builder, without prior experience, and ensure a reasonably high expectation for success. And give guidelines for avoiding significant disappointment.

I am by no means trying to limit discovery of reliable ways to broaden a product's indications and endorse its new application. Or find new ways to solve old problems. But DETAILS have to be provided. There can be lots of reasons why things work or fail in one situation and not another. Until One knows enough of the Details to drive out the Devil in them, my advice is to stick to the straight and narrow. Stray or create variations on a theme at your own risk. Or to your heart's delight.

As Vivona says: Try it on scrap first. See how it works for you. As Ray Adams says: Don't let what you can't do keep you from what you can do.

Living and learning right there with you,
-Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

Not trying to start an argument here but going to the Klass Kote site, it is stated as an " epoxy "
There fore my question is,
Is Klass Kote and the finishes used on threads different ??
If not, why is one used as a blank finish, and the other not ?

I know I am going to here it now ??!!

BOETTCHER – This is a very good question, and is one in which I, too, am keenly interested. At this time, I can only give you the rod-builder’s view of this answer. At the end of it, it may seem like I haven’t told you anything that you don’t already know, or couldn’t figure out if you thought about it longer by yourself, … in superficial terms, that is.

Most Epoxy Thread Finishes (ETF) do not perform well as Rod Blank Finishes (RBFs). They do not have the better wetting properties and adherence properties, and may be too viscous to present a smooth and bonded finish. Please remember that ETFs are designed to be a CASTING RESIN, not a bonded coating. Two notable exceptions, that are ETFs and very good RBFs, are KLASS KOTE (KK) and CRYSTAL COAT (CC). … We’ll get to why that may be in a minute.

PERMAGLOSS (PG) performs very well as a rod blank finish, BUT PG is NOT an EPOXY – PG is a URETHANE. PG forms a clear, hard and very durable surface that is top quality. But basically any of the varnishes or urethanes may perform well as rod blank finishes. Especially if you do not have to be too picky, and are trying to process and upgrade a large volume of un-finished or re-finished rod blanks, where economy may be an issue. [PG is $8 per 4 oz.] But some caution is warranted in the selection of other urethanes or varnishes, because some may yellow, and darken considerably. Over a dark colored blank, this is far less of a concern, but over a light-colored blank, watch out. The urethanes & varnishes tend to spread over and adhere to the rod blank better than most epoxies. Period. …

So, why do some epoxy thread finishes (ETFs) work well as rod blank finishes, while other epoxy thread finishes not work as well? The KISS answer is: Because not all ETFs are created equal. They are all different.

The differences are in the composition of their respective components, and molecular properties of the different RESINS (the Epoxide) and the different HARDENERS (the Amine, the “curing” agent). These molecules are the building blocks of the EPOXY finish, and they join together by a self-catalyzed irreversible chemical reaction. The Epoxide chain cross-links together the Amine chains. The molecular weight of the amine, and the molecular weight of the epoxide, and the percentage of the cross-linking reaction all conspire to determine the flow and adherence and stiffness (casting) properties of the final product (cured epoxy).

It is the different combinations or resins & hardeners that account for the different behavior and properties of the final product (the cured epoxy). Sorry for the references to Organic & Polymer chemistry, but analogs in ordinary things like spaghetti or a child’s snap-together plastic beads are just too limited. At least now you can get the idea. ... -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

Google = “Epoxy Chem Reaction” provided several good technical articles for those wanting more information. ... I recommend this one as sufficiently representative to be the best of the bunch in one reference:

“The Chemistry of Epoxies, Novolacs, and Polyurethanes.”
Paul Oman, MS, MBA - Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc. [www.epoxyproducts.com]

This one is concise, and has a good diagram of the molecular reaction:
"Epoxy Resin Chemistry" by George Waddill, LTI Technical Services [www.labtops.com]

Thanks for the info guys..
Well one of the rods is a Harrington 552 made back in 1945,
and the other one is a Harnell 706 made back in ????.
On the sanding part all I did was sanded the blank down to be smooth again,
in the proccess it made them dull so I want to get them to shine nice and bright again,before I wrap them.
I guess I will buy some permagloss and some black pigment and try it..
Thanks again for all your help.. L8tr.
Glen

Both the Harrington and the Harnell rod blanks are definitely both ALL-fiberglass (with resin binder, of course). They were made WAY before the common introduction of graphite (c. 1980?) and it's composite with fiberglass. So there was little danger of excessively deep sanding (which can damage a graphite blank).

PG + black-pig. = great finish.
Mix in the pigment well, and work quickly.
Wow - Very nostalgic project - Enjoy ! -CMH+++

I got an old re-build surf stick that I did 20 years ago right here at my elbow. It belonged to a buddy's father, and he gave it to me when his father died, 'cause he never surf fishes. It's in the classic style of hickory butt, refitted with a new chrome-over brass ferruled reel seat, and hickory foregrip, tapered to the blank . Re-finished with BLACK pigment in Crystal Coat. Very nice. It looks better than it fishes, so it has been retired before it re-expired and is now a corner curio. It has a weird action (super slow) and not much power for all it's weight, so it gets to earn it's keep just by looking pretty. It never has to crack a sweat, or get sand in its mushroom cap. Life of Reilly ! -CMH+++.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2005 08:47AM by Cliff Hall.

Thanks Cliff. I will go over the articals and see what they have in them.
Permagloss is almost the best. It is just that it is so " finicky " that some times even onto itself a secound coat will some times wrinkle. Drives me nuts ! If only it was slower curing ???
If I was selling more and had the room, the auto polyurethans are the very best IMHO. Plus the colors and that they can be thinned for a light coat. Costly though.

I am tempted to buy the Klass Kote clear and try it just to see how hard it dries compared to finishes that are thinned out. I guess the only way to see how close they are is to try and get a list of the persentage of chemicals in each one of them ?

Wavy Permagloss ... Ken Sapp ... Sept. 21, 2005

I recently bought a bottle of PermaGloss and I have been trying it on some old rods. Every time it dries wavy. I can’t figure that one out. I let it spin for about 2 hours (I guess it really doesn't need that long but just to make sure) on a 18 rpm dryer. Is there something I could do or that I might be doing wrong?

Also what is the color that people mix with it and how does that work? Thanks for y’all’s 2 cents Ken Bro-Ken Tackle Co


Re: Wavy Permagloss ... Tom Kirkman (Moderator) ... Sept. 21, 2005

Used on guide wraps, with sufficient build up, it will indeed give you a slightly wavy or eggshell surface. That's the nature of the beast.

If you're trying to refinish rod blanks with it, you can get a very smooth and glossy surface just by applying it, in one or two quick tip to butt passes, from one of the cheap black foam type paint brushes found at any hardware or home supply store. Two coats, about an hour apart, are all you need.

Wet the brush/foam and make one tip to butt pass along the length without stopping. Then spin the blank 180 degrees and do it again on the other side. Put it aside (stand on end) and let set for about an hour and then do it again.

If the blank is a small diameter one, you can punch a hole in the foam and pass the blank through it in one pass. That will coat the entire surface in just a few seconds. Again, two coats, three at the outside, are usually sufficient. - Tom Kirkman.

Boettcher - I would recommend to JUST TRY the Klass Kote or the Crystal Coat for blank re-finishing, if you want to avoid your disappointment with PG (short working time and slightly wavy appearance by brush, but smooth by foam wipe).

Reading those articles may "edjumacate" you on the deep secrets of epoxy chemistry. But it is more likely to confuse the compass needle on your path-finder. Without some knowledge of organic chemistry, it's all Greek. And it really won't help anybody decide between brands of epoxy, per se. Because none of the manufacturers list the chemical names of the components, anyway !! (Unless you can draw the molecular structures for all the reactants and their final products, it is difficult to understand what they are talking about.)

I referenced those articles as a way of EXPLAINING WHY epoxies are different from each other. They all have different RESINS (Epoxides) and HARDENERS (Amines). There is really no way to read the bottle labels and then go predict the flow properties of the mixed epoxy, or the adherence properties of the cured product. That’s what you’d want to know for a rod blank (re-)finish – the flow & adherence properties. Then, the percentage of cross-linking could be different anyway, even if the resin and hardener are the same.

So, Bill, unless you got your B.S. degree in Organic & Polymer Chemistry from the University of Ari-Vivona-Zona sometime in the last week, the articles won't answer any questions as pertaining to rod-building directly. No offense, Bill, just being realistic. Have fun with it though. The only way for us to learn more is to work at it. –Cliff Hall+++

Hall

I can get any epoxy to flow like glass !! But you are right in as they probably don't show the ingredients ??
The main thing is how hard the surface will be when fully cured, and how well it adheres to the object applied to.

Bill - If you're ever inclined to provide specific directions on how to make ordinary epoxy thread finish perform well as a rod blank finish, I'm sure you'll have quite an audience. Something more than "use lacquer thinner" would be useful, but if that's all you want to say, then that is your prerogative. –Cliff Hall+++

Here’s what I have to say: The thinner will reduce the viscosity of the epoxy. That will help the epoxy spread out better, and hopefully stay where it’s put.

But if the thinner doesn't evaporate well, it will get trapped in the cured epoxy and reduce the hardness of the cured product. (Maybe not too much.)

If it reacts with the epoxy reactants, it will lower the cross-linking and degree of polymerization. That makes a more flexible, but softer cured product.

If the thinner does what it is supposed to do - be an INERT wetting agent which also reduces viscosity during application - then the thinner should evaporate well. And once the thinner is gone, then the epoxy left behind is the SAME EPOXY you would have put on the rod blank before the addition of the thinning agent.

If the epoxy stays where you put it as it cures – [that is, if it doesn’t shrink back or try to form beads because its own surface tension is greater than its adherence to the blank surface (in other words, if your blank scuffing created a sufficiently effective “water break-free” surface and appropriate static charge)] – then you have beat the odds against you.

But it may have as much to do with the way the rod blank is prepared by scuffing as it may have to do with the addition of a thinner. Not all of our successes (or failures) are for the reasons we think. That is why an experiment should have controls in it. Until you apply the same batch of epoxy, some “thinned” verse “un-thinned”, side-by-side on the same rod blank, there will be a tendency to subjectively reinforce the conclusion which you hoped or expected to demonstrate in the first place. That’s just human nature – to be subjective, and less objective.

Lacquer Thinner itself is a mixture of various organic solvents. For one brand, the ingredient list was: % (by volume). The brand may make a bit of a difference. Toluene: 43% . Acetone: 23% - 27% . Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates: 18% - 22% . Methyl Alcohol: 11% . IsoButyl IsoButyrate (an ester): 1% - 3%

Bill, I’m not saying that adding lacquer thinner to epoxy won’t make it better as a good rod blank finish; or that it won’t work for other builders as well, as it apparently has for you. Let’em go for it. I’m just discussing above what is going on chemistry-wise (whether you are aware of it or not), in case these processes present a route for improvement or a source of trouble for that rod-builder’s situation.

If I know THAT something works, that’s great. BUT if we know WHY something works, and how to control the variables, then we REALLY KNOW what is going on and what we are doing. IMO, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

Don't have any names but have been email by builders that say they have been thinning there finish for a lot longer then I, with no problems.

I can't type as long as you, my fingers get tired LOL

They have been thinning their epoxy thread finish, and using it as a rod blank finish, right? ... Is that what you are re-iterating?? - I mean, I'm not surprised. I know that it works for some people. And you know that it works for some people. And there are also people for whom it did NOT work. So, what is the consensus advice, to be conveyed to others, after all our banter?? ... "Try it and see for yourself"? ... Or ... "Use at your own risk." ... "Test on scrap first" is about all I could say. Without some specifics, it's a bit of a roll of the dice, Bill - don't you think? -Cliff Hall+++

This is indeed quite a thread, but I'm afraid that some people will be unneccessarily confused, so I'm going to chip in my twobits worth.
To Glen who started it all -- don't try to add pigment to your permagloss, its totally unneccessary. Just coating the sanded rods with permagloss will restore the original shine. They will be better if you briskly do a final abrasion job with Scotchbrite prior to coating with permagloss. Permagloss demands to be applied in very very thin coats. You can completely eliminate the waviness effect by keeping your coats very very thin. I always use a "kimwipe", dampened and then wiped on. Some like to drag it through a foam brush, same effect if done properly. Brushing with a bristle brush deposits far to much materiel and results in waviness.

Do not ever thin your epoxies with lacquer thinner. There are several different thinners in lacquer thinner, some of which will remain in your epoxy long after it has gelled and hardened. They will eventually evaporate through the hardened epoxy resulting in poor adhesion, crazing, and all the other little demons that plague rodbuilders. If you simply must thin your epoxy (never recommended) always use straight Acetone as acetone evaporates so fast it will always be gone before the epoxy gells. Some people can use MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) and get away with it, even though it is considerably slower than acetone it is still fast enough to be gone before the epoxy hardens. I shudder every time I read on the board that some guy recommends alcohol for thinning epoxies -- or Toluene, or even mineral spirits. They always recommend it and claim they do it all the time with no troubles. Fantastic how many there are out there, that that simply cannot recognize trouble when it stares them in the face.

Some epoxies (LS Supreme HiBuild is one of them) can successfully be thinned for use as a coating. When using an epoxy as coating you want about 20% solids. Which means you want about 4 parts acetone to one part mixed epoxy. This wipes on to a properly prepared surface quite thin and will give decent preformance as a coating, although not nearly so good as permagloss,

CLIFF: There is no reason to ever put Permagloss on a turner. Permagloss is basically a lacquer. It will be dry before you can attach it to a rod turner. If you turned one for 2 hours, that was 1 hour, 59 minutes and 55 seconds longer than necessary. Properly applied Permagloss is too dry to create runs in about 30 seconds, and dry to the touch in 30 minutes. It should never be applied thick enough to have a tendency to run.

Ralph

Ralph - Thanks for your important Epilogue.

For the record, I do not turn PermaGloss after application. When re-finishing, I’ve used a brush, spread it out thinly, and hung the rod vertically to dry. I was simply quoting Ken Sapp's words in his Post “Wavy PermaGloss” from 09-21-05. Sapp was applying his PG, and then spinning it for 2 hours at 18 RPMs, and having a waviness problem. I wanted to include Tom Kirkman's comments, in case Glen Hendricks (who started THIS Post) could benefit from them. Sorry for the confusion.

Nevertheless, Ralph, your comments make it abundantly clear that for best results PG should never be applied so thickly that it has a tendency to run. It should be applied thinly and must be applied quickly. As you (ROQ) said: “Permagloss is basically a lacquer. It will be dry before you can attach it to a rod turner. … Properly applied, Permagloss is too dry to create runs in about 30 seconds, and dry to the touch in 30 minutes.”

Ralph, I take it that the absence of any additional rebuttal means a general agreement with the rest of my line of reasoning and advice. Thank you for yours, that's for sure. If I had tried to discuss: how boiling points and vapor pressures and phase diagrams for a system with a rapidly evaporating component; or how the remaining components create a new system with ever changing viscosity, surface tension and adhesion; or how azeotropes interfere with water evaporation; or how all these things conspire to cause the shrinking and interface distortions and waviness when applied too thickly, – until you showed up, Ralph – I might as well be talking to myself around here. (Maybe you’re gone, and I still am!)

If the curious reader wants to SEE what I’m talking about, and skip the lecture, try this. Take a clean, flat glazed surface. Put a few drops of water down, and roll it around to wet the surface and flatten out the water depth. Now, let one or two drops of alcohol fall right into the middle of the little water puddle. Now look at it from the side, at about eye level. Watch the alcohol drop shake like jello, and almost dance on top of the water for a second. Sometimes the edges dance with rainbow colors as the alcohol and water mix and shrink and create a prism-like dispersion of the light.

This is an exaggerated but representative re-creation of how an evaporating or multi-component solvent system like lacquer thinner interacts with the urethane or epoxy thread finish when being spread out as a rod blank finish. What does not evaporate gets trapped in the epoxy or urethane matrix. And as the solvents evaporate at different rates, they cause various changes in surface tension and viscosity, which may leave an uneven surface if the finish is not spread out ever so thinly. Otherwise, the curing epoxy may have a reduced permeability to the evaporating solvent. This may trap the solvent in the matrix of the finish as it cures, and the solvent may collect in micro-vesicles, like a micro-volcano. This micro-vesicle formation will start as soon as the agitation of stirring in the mixing cup or brushing onto the rod blank stops. If the rate of solvent liquid-gas diffusion out of the finish matrix is slower than the tendency of the solvent to form vesicles; or if the co-attraction of the epoxy matrix for the solvent is stronger than the vapor pressure of the solvent, etc., then trapping of the solvent in the finish matrix is guaranteed.

Tiny gassing-out holes may form as the solvents evaporate from the thicker layers and leave a dimpled or pimpled surface. If they can’t escape during the brushing-out, these micro-vesicles may persist. They refract and reflect and disperse light differently than the epoxy matrix. If your finish develops a cloudy or silvery quality, that is probably what happened. Too much thinner, too thick a coating, or just plain poor spreading / stroking action during application of the finish is almost certainly at fault.

Another commonly observed but little considered aspect of evaporation chemistry is this: Have you ever wondered why a liquid can evaporate at a temperature that is well below its boiling point? … We all rely on this principle almost every day. Consider the towel we dry ourselves off with, after our shower in the morning. It’s dry the next morning. Yet, it never gets anywhere near 212 degrees Fahrenheit, the boiling point of water. In fact, it may never get above about 80’F. The large surface area of the towel and the convection of air conditioning account for only part of the reason why evaporation at temperatures well below the boiling point is possible for most liquids.

Suffice to say that the Maxwell-Boltzmann Distribution Plot of Proportion verse Temperature (which is a measure of average kinetic energy) for a pure liquid at STP (standard temperature and pressure) is a bell-shaped curve with a very long tail in the direction of higher temperatures. Even at room temperature, there is a small but definite percentage of molecules with enough kinetic energy to evaporate. Eventually, enough molecules achieve that velocity, and, when they do, they are raptured, and are seen no more. That is the reason why a small increase in temperature will increase the rate of evaporation – it increases the percentage of molecules with sufficient velocity to evaporate – and why warm, dry air is important for many evaporation processes. If you really want to go overboard on this, go to:

Kinetic Temperature: [hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu]
Maxwell-Boltzmann Distribution: [en.wikipedia.org]

(Note that I said warm dry air for “evaporation” processes, not “curing”. Yes, I know that PG needs moisture to cure. And that many epoxies will cure under water. Some will even adhere underwater to metal surfaces. Rod-building epoxy thread finishes may cure underwater, but they weren’t designed to adhere when applied under water.)

So, THAT’s the nature of the beast, IMO. It can best be tamed by avoiding dubious methods and techniques for applications of a rod blank finish in the first place. Good luck, whatever anybody tries to do around here. –Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

“Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.” – Thomas Alva Edison
“Look before you leap, for as you sow, ye are like to reap.” – Samuel Butler
“Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.” – Alexander Pope
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”
“If at first you don’t succeed, try, try, again.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2005 10:58AM by Cliff Hall.