I want to share this experience with all:

After having built several 50 and 80# rods during this summer, I switched to building an 8-12 spinning rod. Yes; the same one I have been asking this forum for different inputs recently.

The set-up was ready for the guide-wrapping task, which I started at the butt, well prepared, double foot size 50 wire guide...

...first foot done using size A nylon; when I passed the burnishing tool over the wrap, the guide feet dug into the blank, breaking it. I failed to make myself aware of the thread tension detail, while planning the wrapping of the guides, and wrapped this one with almost the same heavy tension recently used on the heavier big foot roller guides.
I had read about this before but.... so here this is a reminder...TOO MUCH TENSION ON THE GUIDE FEET CAN CAUSE IT TO DIG INTO THE BLANK AND BREAK IT.

In honor to this tragedy, I have the butt assembly including the +10 hrs novel butt wrap work hanging visibly in my shop, broken part of the blank cleanly cut away.

Put a ferrule in it and sell it as a 2pc. Jesse

Was the bottom of he guide feet prepped properly? MAybe there was a sharp edge which dug in and caused the failure?

There is no way that to much tension will cause the breakage of that blank. You simply must have had a very improperly prepared guide foot, and possibly a faulty blank. There is nothing in the burnishing process to cause breakage either. You can wrap that blank with a properly prepared guide foot with so much tension on size A thread that you can break the thread and still not cause the blank to break. To much tension will cause problems and probably breakage somewhere down the line after several hours of casting and general usage of the rod --- but not in the shop before all the guides are tied ---. Your breakage was caused by something besides merely to much tension, and a poorly prepared guide foot is the most obvious culprit.

Ralph

“Ay carumba! Que lastima!” = “OUCH! - What a PAIN !-” You have my condolences, Ricardo.

Did you save the guide, Ricardo? Take another look at it, like Vivona and ROQ are suggesting. Those wire guides usually use an electric arc spot-weld on the underside, to fuse the two legs and feet of the guide frame together into one unified flat foot. That weld can leave an extremely sharp and short spear-point of tempered metal sticking out. When you wrap it down, it could easily puncture the rod blank, and put a fault line in the surface and down into the deeper fibers and “hoop”. If that is what happened, then almost any thread pressure could have caused this point failure. When you added some additional pressure with the burnishing tool, that was obviously the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Ricardo, I’ve been thinking about this on & off all day, and I am also wondering, like Vivona and ROQ, about the guide itself. Maybe the edges on the guides were somehow TOO sharp, or the shape or curvature of the underside of the wire guide somehow concentrated a lot of pressure on a tiny point or edge of the underside of the guide. And that crushed or cut the rod blank. Or, as I suggested above, a weld spur was driven into the rod blank by the thread pressure and killed the blank. Or some pre-existing blank imperfection that you discovered the hard way. IMO.

All this is another reason I like using underwraps, ...

Let us know if another examination of the guide or rod blank reveals any news. Best Wishes, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2005 08:05PM by Cliff Hall.

A sharp edge on the guide might hurt, but there is something else to consider.

If you have a person weighing 200 lbs stand on your hand wearing a pair of flat soled shoes, it might hurt but probably won't do any damage. If that same person stands on your hand wearing something like a woman's high heeled shoe, with just the heel, you'll have some damage done. Concentrating whatever pressure you have into a single point can damage things. Why is a nail pointed on the end? To concentrate the force of the hammer blow onto a single, tiny point. That's why it penetrates the object it's being hammered into.

If you do not make sure that your guide feet are absolutely flat, you run the risk of putting all the pressure onto a single point. This can damaged and break thin-walled blanks (and no, an underwrap won't help stop this).

Do your level best to make sure your guide feet sit absolutely flat on the blank. Even better, run the feet along a non-tapered file (chainsaw file) that approximates the diameter of the blank at the point where the guide will sit. The more the bottom of the foot makes complete and full contact with the blank, the more any pressure is going to be spread out over a much larger area.


.............................

Guys thanks for taking the time to help me understand what happened here.

Below is my recollection of events and scenarios, and learning's from your comments.

This is the first time that I use SS wire guides that are not welded. These are made of SS wire bent and turned into a three hair coil, and the ends (feet) bent so they "kind of align" with the blank axis, although they did not align parallel with the rod blank when you present the guide on the blank, but more so diagonally , and I wrapped them in that position, instead of mayby trying to get them more straight.

What I noticed different on these guides that on the welded models, is that the feet are stamped into a square shape instead than into a flat tapered shape. The base and body of this square shape is of the same diameter as the wire, (narrow and high). This resembles TK's comment regarding same pressure over a high heel surface vs. over soled shoes.

I have read to many times (throughout the years) in this forum about proper guide feet preparation, and until now, I thought I was doing a good job.

The work I did to prepare the square shape of the feet consisted of taking the dremmel tool and tapering (built a small ramp of about 1/8 inch long) the end of each foot, filing it with a diamond back file, hand sanding it with 600 grit paper, and passing each foot over my fingers and nails in all possible directions looking for sharp edges. Then I took a flat file and filed each foot by pressing it squarely on the file and moving it back and forth until I saw an even wear throughout its bottom surface, then sanded it until it was smooth. This is as much as I did in terms of guide feet preparation. The feet toes were tapered (no problems building the thread up) but once the thread was up past the ramp, they were high on the narrow square foot, then came the pressure of the thread and a little more with the burnishing action, I recall that I might had rotated the foot a few degrees, once wrapped, to align it with the center line on the blank, maybe this hurt it to some extent, or maybe I was placing the guide in an internally weak part of the blank .

ROQ's comment related to a faulty blank might be another possibility, I don't know how to determine if this is the case. I still have two more of these blanks that I am planning to convert into spinning rods, I will examine these blanks more carefully to make sure there are no obvious visible faults on it.

I guess that I will have to file down the guide feet to create less a height, try to straighten them to align parallel with the blank line, apply less pressure with the thread and maybe consider an under wrap (I know TK does not favor the latter).

Let me know if you have additional comments.

Jessy, Billy, Cliff, Ralph, and Tom.....Many Thanks !!!!

Ricardo Font
Puerto Rico Rods

Next time you are watching TV take your guides, some thing with a flat edge, lay them on and try to see if there is any light showing though them, I look at the TV. If I see light I bend to fit. Then prep

If you want, take a piece of cotton and slid it over the guide. This will tell you if there are any burrs.
I just use my finger. After fileing I sand with 220 grit sandpaper.

There is no better tool for removing burrs and sharp edges than the Unified Wheel sold by Bingham Enterprises. In a matter of just 2 or 3 seconds it will prefectly burnish a guide foot, top, bottom and side and ensure that you never again have a sharp edge or burr on your guide feet. I wouldn't want to ever again prep a guide without the help of this fantastic item. I think they still sell for less than $10 and will last a very long time. I can't imagine trying to do this job with emery or crocus cloth, or a Dremel tool.

Not saying that a sharp edge or burr was your problem, but they sure don't help.

..........

Bill,

Thanks, I will try the TV light tip.

Tom,
I am a follower !
I tried to open the BE Link on the sponsors column but could not get through.
I tried Google www.angelfire.com/ks/bingham/ is this the link ? I still have problems getting through my office desktop
If it is a different URL please provide it, otherwise I will try tonight from home.
Once More
Thanks

Ricardo - Try the BE LInk from your home computer. Most employers and governmental agencies have BLOCKED the ability to access any sort of website with a www.***.COM web-e-ddress. "DOT.COM" blocking keeps employees away from on-line shopping (and porn) while at work. LOL, Cliff Hall+++

I searched their website and couldn't find this, either. Maybe you'll have to call them or order a catalog from Karen?

Putter
Williston, ND

[www.angelfire.com]

When you examine those blanks for flaws -- what you are looking for is any "out of roundness condition" A perfectly round structure will not collapse with the load that 'A' thread is capable of imparting. However any slight out of roundness resulting in an oval shape is another story. An oval can readily be collapsed with A thread -- even in the heavier area towards the butt end of a blank. Combine an oval shape with a burr on the guide foot and you have the makings of your disastrous experience.

Ralph

TO ALL:
Thanks again for helping out.
The advises, comments and collective knowledge that pours into this forum are the best lessons/tools any rod builder can wish to have, I feel fortunate and well guided.

SPECIAL THANKS TO TOM FOR PUTTING TOGETHER, KEEPING, AND IMPROVING THIS BLESSED SITE.

Best regards,
Ricardo Font
PUERTO RICO RODS