I did an experimaent to determine how much guide weight affects the performance of light fly blanks. I weighed the tip top (size 4) and three guides (size 6 ceramic or size 2 wire) and came up with the following...

Pacific Bay SiC ceramic (single foot): 16.4 grains
American Tackle Titan (single foot, stainless tip top): 16.1 grains
Snake guides: 11.6 grains
Pacific Bay Illusion (single foot): 9.8 grains
REC recoil (single foot): 5.3 grains

I also determined that there are approximately 0.7 grains of thread and epoxy per 1 cm wrap. Adding this weight per guide (1.0 for the snake guides -- two 7 mm wraps per foot), the total weights are...

SiC: 19.2 grains
Titan: 18.9 grains
Snake: 15.6 grains
Illusion: 12.6 grains
Recoil: 8.1 grains

What this shows me is that ceramic ring guides add considerable weight to the tip of the rod (30% of the total weight of the tip section), snake guides are not the lightest due to the double wrap, and that single foot, whether plated or fine wire, are the best choice for retaining the full action of a light blank.

I intend to use single foot for 3-wt and lower, and either single foot or ceramic ring for 4-wt and up, depending on the blank.

I'm done with archaic snakes. With the wraps, they don't save weight, and they're the same design that are on my bamboo rods (which were designed for thin silk lines and short-to-medium distance casts).

I did something similar, albeit with a much larger blank & guides - Calstar 800L with ICMNSG20 & TLNSG 10 (8). I did mine in ounces, not grains though.

Blank + Grips = 12.125oz
underwrapped = 12.175oz; w/ epoxy = 12.2
overwrapped with guides: 12.545; second coat: 12.615

So, 9 guides underwrapped with A Nylon on a medium SW rod weighed a whopping .050oz, and a coat of epoxy over this underwrap = .025oz. The guides + tip weighed about a third of an ounce (.3). Total weight added by guides & under & overwraps + 3 coats of epoxy was a little less than a half an ounce on a medium heavy saltwater rod.

Had I used Alconites, thie total weight would've went up about .2oz, and using the old standby HNSG's, it would've went p by more than 1/2oz.

Good info Jim- I usually only make light fly rods sot his is handy, thanks for the work you put in on this.

Jim,
I did some of the same testing that you have done and came to the same basic conclusion that you have come to though I did find the thread and epoxy weight to be a bit more than your testing has shown.
There is one point that I would like to add to your work though and that is that the foot on most single footed guides is considerably longer then the feet on double footed guides and this additional length naturally increases the weight of the guide, and wrap. On most single footed guides the foot is long enough that it can, in my opinion, be shortened a good deal further decreasing the weight.

For general reference, a Table of Calculated Weights and Strengths of UNFINISHED Gudebrod Thread Wraps for Sizes 2/0-E, for Silk, Regular Nylon, NCP and HT Metallics, assuming a thread wrap bandwidth of 1 cm, around a rod blank of circumference of 1 cm (OD = 1/Pi = 3.18 mm), is available at: [www.rodbuilding.org] -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA+++

Emory,

Thanks for all the work that you have done on fly rod characteristics. My work pales in comparison to yours.

I realize that the length of the foot on single foot guides (with ceramic rings, not looped wire) is considerably longer than on double foot or single foot (looped wire), but I have been reluctant to shorten them. 1) I doubt that the weight reduction would be significant and 2) I'm sure that the manufacturers considered this in the design of the guide. I'm not sure of the reason, but it might have to do with increased leverage resistance (see next sentence) or increased winding/mounting surface. I had a single foot ceramic (Titan) break last week when a guide "disassembled" my rod for me. The ring section broke off right at the bend, but the foot remained intact beneath the wrap. BTW, I like the Titans because they're relatively light and the foot is shaped to prevent pull out, so Forhan wraps aren't needed.

Jim,
I am sure that you are right that the weight savings would be small.

I do not care the protrusions on the side of the foot of some guides that I think that you are talking about. They will tend to hold the guide on better but they make it difficult to do a good job of packing the thread especially when using smaller size thread.