Michael Joyce I am VERY INTERESTED to know how you did the off set Chevron inside the same Chevron. That looks AWESOME!!! Would you mind sharing how you did that? If it's to long to post can you E-Mail me at rodarts@wmconnect.com
Thanks Dale

I can't tell you...its a secret.

Here's the instructions: [www.rodbuilding.org]

If you look carefully, you can make out what he did. I think he just haphahardly did this off teh top of his head. I've seen a few of these types of wraps, sme woven into teh guide wrap - they are insane.

Just joking around....lol! The pattern starts with a simple chevron with the standard "turn at the top", as I've seen most traditional open chevrons done. The "trick " is on subsequential passes...elogate the wrap at the top or "turn" inorder to generate an addional "off the wall" overlapping chevron. Be CREATIVE on the turn, and think "over lapping of the turn bands".....You can do ANYTHING in the pattern....look deep, disect the wrap and experiment!!!

I credit the "turn at the top" style to Roy Braurer and his sons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2005 09:16PM by Michael Joyce.

Mike, the turn on the top style of Roy's buttwraps was intentional from a performance view rather than the visual view as well. Roy would do some pretty trick stuff to rods to help modify their actions, one of his beliefs was that by using an upper tie off, or by not keeping the pressure on the thread thru out the wrap would take out some power that was establish with the wraps. Kind of a diiferent train of thought but his rods all had power that the identical blank wrapped by some one else was lacking. Roy coincidentally was the first builder I ever knew not to use a brush for his finish! He also did not use a spatula! I will try to get some shots of his and his sons work and post them.

Andrew, thanks for that response. He told my how he incorporated thread into changing the action of a blank...facinating stuff that I had to try myself...I turned an MB1083M into a completed diferent animal based on his advice...others will dispute how thread in a large dec wrap could change the action of blank....!

He gave me a demo of his finish technique, he was the first I saw that just poured it on!!




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2005 05:45PM by Tom Kirkman.

There is no doubt that enough thread and epoxy could be added to a blank to change the characteristics of the rod. The question in my mind is why would you want to do that. Graphite is used to make blanks because of the high modulus and low weight of graphite but you will throw much of the advantages of graphite away with added weight. Enough thread and epoxy could be added to change the blanks characteristics but the change would all be negative in terms of the rods performance.
As far as changing the power of a blank by changing the pressure on the thread when wrapping is concerned well that is just plain nonsense.

Not everyone wraps miniscule rods where the addition of a relative small amount of weight isn't going to hurt the performance of the rod at all. Since Mike mentioned the Canal, a typical set up would be a Glass Lami capable of throwing 6-12oz, and is able to horse 30# Striped Bass away from rocks while fishign a ripping 3 knot current - maybe more current.

Billys right on the money...lots of custom rods on the Cape Cod Canal and alot of fiberglass 10 yrs ago good for large surface plugs and heavy jigs on the bottom. A stiffer butt section definately helps with the fish fighting. With the current, any fish is basically a fish times two.

Emory...I'll use a10ft Lami SB1203M as an example (pretty moderate action) wrap from the butt up the blank about 4.5 ft, thin coat of finish, apply 24" cork tape, reel seat. cork tape fore . Now make a HUGE, beatiful elongated chevron all the way to the first guide, use Holland varigated thread, and you end up with a Canal rod like the many I saw ten years ago. It noticeably changed the action of the butt end, and people loved them.

any man who can change the power of a blank by changing the pressure on thread while wrapping can also change a jug of water into wine -- he could also take two fish and feed some 5 thousand people with those two fish.

Ralph

Its good to know....that I now know a man, with lots of wine and plenty of fish for all. lol.

But that man probably failed Astro-Physics 101.

The addition of thread will result in more weight the blank has to carry. Any thread (weight) added to a rod results in a rod with a bit less power and a reduction in reaction and recovery time. Although, a thread butt wrap on most rods isn't going to change the rod attributes to any degree that the average human could feel. But nobody is going to increase the power or change the action of a blank with a thread wrap. The naked blank is in it's most efficient state - as soon as you add any weight to it, you get an immediate reduction in the performance charateristics of the blank. Action, however, remains unchanged.

......................................

The first time I saw this done by another builder, I thought the same thing Thread and finish can't alter a blank, or its performance...he said "yes it can", I said "no it can't"............

....after a year of bashing this through my head, I decided to try it for myself on a MB1083M with 3" snipped off the tip. I wrapped 48" of "D" nylon, tight up the blank and applied a light coat of finish (Flex Coat). I then applied 18" of cork tape, a reel seat (mounted with Flex Coat rodbuilders epoxy and masking tape arbors)and a 4" tape foregrip. The decorative wrap was done with size A Gudebrod, 3" spacing, wrapped double chevron...pretty tight all the way to the gathering guide and back again..............

The end result is that out of the two MB1083M's with 3" off the tip that I've got in my hands right now, the one with thats sufferrring from "wrap bondage" shuts down quicker, than the one without "wrap bondage". Sure, It adds bulk and weight, but for Canal fishing and an18 oz conventional...weight and bulk doesn't matter.

I SEE and FEEL that its been altered. Based on someone elses ideas and thoughts.

(Cecil...hows the wrap coming along?)

Michael,
You are right the performance of the rod can be changed with added weight. But it is not being changed in any way for the better. All of the change is negative. A little additional weight in the butt wrap, especially on a very powerful rod like the one you are using, is not going to have a large negative effect. But it will have a small negative effect even in a powerful rod. For example, the response of the rod and therefore the tip velocity will drop slightly which means that it will not cast quite as far, the efficiency will also drop slightly so that it will not be as sensitive.

The weight that you are adding may not be a big problem in the particular type of fishing that you are doing but anyone who thinks that they are improving the rods performance with added weight is just fooling themselves. As Tom said the naked blank is as good as it gets.

I'm sure there is a difference, but it's the added weight, not thread tension or direction or anything like that.

I doubt the two blanks you have are identical to begin with. Hard to compare blank to blank because making them is so labor intensive and opens the door for so much variance in power and action. It's rare you get two with the exact same tip diameter.

But sure, I know you can make one will feel and perform differently than the other by adding thread, if you add enough of it. I wouldn't argue that.


............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2005 10:39PM by Tom Kirkman.

It doesn't really matter...you guys are right, .....I'm wrong.!! I love being wrong!!!! I'm wrong 99% of the time!! Please forget the fact that I even argued the point!.............................. for others..(,it kind of works!!!!)

(Cecil...hows the wrap coming?)

Sincerely , Timmy!!!

An easy way to see what if any changes are made is by running a CCS measurement before and after thread is added. Because it takes the human opinion out of the equation, you get facts and only facts. Measuring devices can't lie. They don't offer opinions, just the facts.

I tried this on some blanks after I got my stuff set up to do it. My findings were that no amount of thread or guides would change the action. The AA stayed the same no matter how much stuff I wrapped on a blank. I guess that is to be expected since where the rod bends depends on how the designer tapered it to begin with. I did find that if I put a lot or very heavy guides on it the ERN would reduce by an amount that was corresponding to the amount of weight I hung on the rod with the guides and thread. I can't imagine that a butt wrap would change the blanks power but I plan to try it today with some tightly made wraps on the butt area.

I haven't done any of these using the CCF and will be trying that next week when I have time. That one would show any change in frequency caused by the addition of anything and I am guessing that the frequency WILL change but that it will only go down, not up.

Can you use CCS on blanks rated 6-12oz?

Hypothetical Q's here
-If I made a fiberglass cord with a 1/8" diameter, and wrapped it halfway up a blank - would that change the action?
- If I take some woven graphite, and slip it around the blank halfway up (like some Japanese blanks) - wouldn't that stiffen teh butt and change the action of the blank as well?

You can use the CCS on any blank you want to - only problem is in coming with a fixture that will support a blank that requires a pound or more to flex it to the proper amount. That's why it's hard to use it on the really heavy, short blanks like offshore trolling and stand up rods.

You won't change the action on any blank with something like cord or thread wrapped around it - you'd have to apply some type of material in a linear fashion to do that. A tube, adding its own stiffness could be slipped over or inside a blank and yes, you'd likely change the action that way. You'd surely affect the power if it increased overall stiffness.

Look at it this way - off the rod blank, that tube you mention has its own stiffness and structural integrity. Does the thread or cord? Spiral one up (off the blank) and flex it - it won't even hold the structure you just put it in, it'll just fall apart. It would rely on the rod blank for "stiffness." It has none of its own to add.

You can argue that the effect it may have on the hoop strength of the blank might cause the blank to then resist flexing a bit more in that area, but this is usually a trade off between whatever resistance it adds and the weight it adds that the blank now has to carry. You won't appreciably increase hoop strength with a thread wrap.

But thread wraps don't really make a blank stiffer and they won't really change how it flexes - they just add weight the blank then has to carry. I still don't think that most rods will see any significant reduction in performance because of a decorative butt wrap. Sure, it reduces it some, but down low on the butt and with the amount of weight we're talking about, I doubt the human hand can detect it. Particularly in something like a trolling or surf rod.

I don't doubt that Mike doesn't feel a difference in his two blanks, but I have to believe that this is the inherent difference between the two blanks to begin with. Few blanks even of the same model have verbatim power and action. The manufacturing process for rod blanks doesn't really lend itself to creating perfect copies from blank to blank. But I don't want to discount what he feels. If he feels it, he feels it. Shawn's use of the CCS would be more definite, but you'd have to use the same blank, naked and then with the wrap/s installed. Using two different blanks, even of the same model isn't going to prove much. They probably aren't exactly the same to begin with.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2005 11:15AM by Tom Kirkman.