I mainly build bass, inshore and flyrods. I don't ever use double foot guides on these rods because the bass and inshore rods need to be lite and the line rating seems to be anywhere from 6-20 lb test. At what point do you start using double foot guides all the way out? Under 20lb line rating I don't see a reason to use them. Just wondering what are some thoughts of this. There are a lot of VERY talented rod builders here and I value their opinions very much. That's why I ask questions. ;)

Thanks,
Steve

Steve,

I'm with you! The biggest rods that I make are musky rods and I always use single foots. I sometimes use a double foot for the butt guide but that is mainly to get the height that I want. I'm hooked on the "bumper" spiral wrap now.

Mike

Hi Steve,

I'm building a heavy/fresh - med/salt 15-40lb. jig stick (1st bumper rod) and I'm using double foot guides through out. With this
rod, obviously, guide weight is not a factor but strength is. Anything lighter and I would use the single foot guides
99% of the time.

The high quality of todays single foot guides makes them the first choice for me when ever possible. As you know
lighter weight = better performance. I don't think I will ever use the double foot spinning guides again! BLAAGH !!

However, an underwrapped, inlayed, double foot guide guide wrap with trim bands sure can add a lot of looks to
a rod and with some people looks are everything. (except when the price goes way up!)

There are times when I use that approach when the performance is not affected to a large degree by using the
double foot guides and I want the rod to really pop without the added time and effort putting on a weave or intricate
buttwrap. (casting rods only)

My 3 1/2 cents,

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2005 01:04PM by Raymond_Adams.

IMO, and generally speaking, rod blanks with a line rating range that includes 30 lbs or higher would be considered candidates for double-footed guides. At 50 lbs, all double-footed or turbo guides. Any higher, only turbos or roller guides. There is obviously lots of room for personal preferences here and exceptions based on specific applications, but those cut-offs would probably cover 80% of the cases.

If you pick a stout blank and go with a line and reel at the low end of the rod's line rating, then you could go lighter on the guides. What you want to avoid, or at least be aware of, is that the extra weight of double-foot guides and the extra thread and epoxy weight can definitely pre-load the blank enough to make it sluggish (or load at a lower lure weight). You seem to be keenly aware of that already.

There is not much benefit to the idea of using double-footed guides to "stiffen" a section of the rod blank. The extra weight of double footed guides verses single-footed guides will pre-load the blank anyway, and become increasingly counter-productive as those guides are placed more forward on the rod blank toward the tip.

For a rod used to cast a lot, lighter is better to reduce the fatigue factor and preserve sensitivity. For a trolling rod or a bait stick, saving a few grams of weight may be less of an issue than the need for rugged construction.

Steve, for the rods you typically are building, 6-20 lb line rating, for bass, inshore and flyrods, you are quite correct: you pretty much have no need for double-footed guides. The forces directly on your guide rings are minimal. And those guides are not going to slip or experience too much direct mechanical shock, like they might in a heaving sea along a gunwale or boat rail. As you said, Steve, under 20 lb line rating, I don't see much reason to use them either.

IMO, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-USA +++

If you wish to get a sense of the weight of the thread and epoxy for a guide wrap, consult Emory Harry's latest article in RMM-8(3), page 22-29, especially the Tables on pages 26-27. It also has a Table of Weights for Selected Guides.

At the RBO Photo Gallery, I have posted a "Gudebrod Thread Table: Strength & Weight of Guide Wraps for Size 2/0 - E". A Table of Wrap Strength & Wrap Weight per 1 cm Width of Guide Wrap around a 1 cm circumference section of rod blank (OD = 3.18 mm) for selected popular Styles & Sizes of Gudebrod Rod-Building Thread. (Calculated values, not direct "in-situ" measurements. -Cliff Hall-)
[www.rodbuilding.org]

What single foot guides for conventional rods do you prefer? Say under 30lb line test. I have double foot guides on a 15-30 rod now and was thinking of changine to single foot guides over the winter to make it lighter

Al...I guess it depends on what type guide you want. On casting rods I use mostly alconite fly guides and on spinners the single foot spinning guides with fly guides. I would guess that you would want to use a #8 fly guide. That should be enough to pass the line and any knots.

Use the lightest guides you can get away with...

Steve,

What do you use before you go to the Alconite fly guifes???

Mike

I had been using double foot, or casting, guides for the transition guides. But now I have gone to using fly guides for that also and using a double foot butt guide for the heigth needed. I have one rod I'm building now that I'm using all fly guides unless I need the heigth for the butt guide. Which I don't think I will need it when using a low profile reel. I just gotta make sure that the line isn't touching the blank under a load using all fly guides. It's really all been trial and error.

Steve

All spin rods I build use single foot guides. Even heavy saltwater surf spin. All casting rods with guides on top get double foot guides. I dont' think single foot guides are made for use on top of a top. If you remember, this is where they got their bad rep. Some companies were using the Fuji LVSG types on bass rods years ago and they'd bend nearly flat. I don't think they were designed to have a load put on them in that direction. From underneath the rod though, you'll never bend or break them.

I do think the shorter and less flexible little fly single foots could be used on casting rods without any problem. They sit lower though so you'd have to use a lot more of them. Me, I just spiral them.

I think that the reason the SF guides were getting bent on the bass rods was due to being tangled and yanked out of rod lockers on bass boats. Before I started spiral wrapping, I was using single foots and fly guides (except for the butt guide) on musky rods with no problem. I may be wrong, but I just don't think that there is that much pressure placed on a guide other than possibly the tip top.

Mike

Mike Barkley wrote: "I may be wrong, but I just don't think that there is that much pressure placed on a guide, other than possibly the tip top. -Mike Barkley. "

FYI - According to ROQ (Ralph O’Quinn): “The bond load on a tip top is practically nothing. Black Jack chewing gum will hold most tips in place. Tips fall off because they were not put on properly in the first place. -Ralph”. Taken from:
“Re: Tip Tops Posted by: Ralph O'Quinn Date: July 2, 2005 03:33PM” [http://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,154101,154116#msg-154116]

It doesn't take much to hold the top in place but I would think that there would be a fair amount of downward pressure on the ring by the line since the tip top ring is the exit point of the line. When fighting a fish and the rod is bent in half, it's the line pulling down on the tip top (not the other guides) that is bending the rod. It won't pull the tip top off because the pressure is down or to the side not straight out so there would be no pulling action on the tube (I think!!!! ). I wouldn't be surprised if you were fighting a fish with the rod at the 2 o'clock position with NO adhesive on the tip top that it would stay on.

As usual, this is strictly an opinion and I have no knowledge of physics (or much else) and should be taken with a pound of salt!!!!

Mike

MB - What can I say? Like the old E.F.Hutton commercial, "When ROQ speaks, everybody listens." What you are saying, Mike, certainly makes perfectly good sense to me. When the fish is running off near the surface at 90 degrees to the right or left of the rod blank, the fish is putting pressure on the 9 o'clock or the 3 o'clock position on the tip-top's guide ring. Those positions have the longest lever arm (the greatest leverage) for placing torque on the tip-top's tube. But for the same reason, Mike, you are correct when you say that the other guides really are not getting much pressure, because their lever arm is so short, if not zero, because the pressure pushes straight down on top of the rod or under the rod. And as was said above, single-foot guides are certainly up to the task for most rods with a line rating. below 30 lbs. -Cliff Hall +++

But you say it so much better!!!!! LOL



Mike (Southgate, MI)
If I don't want to, I don't have to and nobody can make me (except my wife) cuz I'm RETIRED!!