Could someone explain to me in layman's (practical fishing) terms how the new American Titan Turbo Nanolite compares to Fuji 's SiC, other than cost. I did a search but comparisons I found were to Alconites. Much appreciated, Ron

My personal feeling is they are somewhere in between SiC and Alconite. Amtack says they are just as good if not better than SiC. Definitely smoother than Alconites in my opinion, although there's nothing wrong with the Alconites for the $$.

Phil

My recollection from information that has been posted in the past is as follows:

Hardness: Nanolite is somewhere between Alconite and SiC. I've not seen a Vicker's hardess number for nanolite yet.

Durability: Nanolite is more durable than SiC for the same thickness of material... so you can make a thinner and lighter Nanolite ring and have it be just as durable as an SiC ring that must be slightly thicker and heavier to achieve the same level of durability. I'm not sure if durability is the correct word (I'm sure there is jargon that better describes what I'm talking about), but what I mean is strength and resistence to cracking from impact type stress.

Erik

Erik - who performed those durability tests?

Hi Guys,

The Nanolite ring is around 1800 VH just under SiC @ 2200. The ring like SiC, will handle wire line is recreational situations and will certainly stand up to the various super braids. The extra hardness of SiC is just not worth it in our opinion. We could very easily use SiC with these guides but it would increase the price and reduce the durability. The fragile nature of SiC contributes to cracking and ring loss.

The testing on the durability was simple. Our factory which punches both SiC and the Nanolite rings for us in our guide frames see the very apparent differences in ring strength. They tell me the SiC is very brittle and they get a very high breakage rate when punching them into the frame. They tell me the Nanolite ring is extremely strong so much so they were able to reduce the mass of the ring and still come out ahead of SiC in strength. The rings in the Turbo's are our full size rings but still smaller than SiC.

We had the Turbo's wrapped up on a 30 lb graphite blank at the ICAST show. All we had to do was hand the rod to a customer and they were sold. The rod felt like an ultra light. The Titan Turbo's are so light they defy all expectations. They will never rust, they are flexible and best of all the lightest guide ever made in their class.

Warmest regards, Joe Meehan, American Tackle

Joe, I found your post very interesting. My own experience with Sic inserts in a fishing sitaution as apposed to a manufacturing one is that inspite of the claims made against sics for being brittle I have never had a failure. Now I am not an occasional Angler and I have had sics on some of my rods for over 8 years. I swim out to rocks to fish and my gear gets a hammering. So is it really fair to point the finger at sics and label them fragile. Maybe in comparitive terms when measured against Nanolite they are fragile but in application ie fitted to fishing rods they are more than up to the task asked of them. I am also surprised that even the very lightest of rings would have made that much difference to the mass and feel of a 30 lb class boat rod. Maybe on an ultra light rod then yes you might notice the slightly lower ring weight. Do I detect a little hype hear. This does not lessen my interest in your Nanoliten guides by the way.

Regards

Mike OLiver.

two comments:
I can't wait to try the titanium turbos.
I've used SIC guides on my rods for over 10 years and have never seen one crack.

Mike - I think the reason the guides were lighter than the LRSG Turbo's is the frame material, not the ring material. For the majority of SW fishing, teh weight savings by using a smaller ring doesn't make a hill of beans difference. Having a MUCH lighter frame which doesn't rust does though.

Sounds like a great idea, and if they do not rust & fall apart in teh SW, i'm sure they will be a big hit.

Yeah Billy I agree. Joe did not specify what competing ring he was comparing his to on the 30lb rod. Fuji do some heavy framed guides and just maybe on some 30lb class beasties they are the right tools for the job. It will be interesting to see these new guides.

Cheers

Mike O

Mike... You can see the Titan Turbo guides here...

[www.americantackle.us]

Mike... You can see the Titan Turbo guides here...

[www.americantackle.us]

Most interesting and objective info, just what I needed. I have built stand-ups with LRSG's for several years and have never really felt that there was an equal. I never feel right about changing something that ain't broke but will give the Titans a try for a USA product if nothing else. Still would like to see a matching top. One thing I know is "titanium" is a power word when talking guide selection with a customer. Thanks to everyone.

Hi Mike,

Did you find my post interesting or irritating? I'm just passing on my info I gleaned from the manufacturer and personal experiance. Your personal experiance may be different but we've heard about the problems with SiC rings from customer feedback for years. All I can tell you is what our factory manager told us regarding their manufacturing process.

The mass of the ring has little to do with the weight savings. The weight savings is in the frame. The titanium frame is about half the weight of stainless and will not rust period. Give them a try and don't hold my feelings about SiC against me. It’s a great ring we just think the Nanolite ring does a better job for a lot less.
.

Are American tackle guides made in the USA or overseas in the same factories that PacBay and Batson also use? Just wondering because many of the products look identical.

Rockin, I think they are all made overseas but in diffferent countries. I think. One plant is in Korea, one in Taiwan, one in Malaysia, or Singapore, or some other SE Asia country.

Hi Joe,

I found your post interesting and informative. I found the info on the relative toughness of Nanolite verses sic in the manufacturing process very ineteresting as an Engineer.
Joe I don't hold your feelings against you as reagrds your views on sic. It is a fact that they will be more brittle than materials of a less hard composition.. It's just that I get sometimes a bit tecthy when one product gets compared to another in a way that could put one product or tecnology down when the parameters are not totally relavant for direct comparison. Ie experince in production verses actual performance in the field. That's not to say that fact is not very interseting but it could lead some builders to revise their views on a proven product like Sic. Yes I accept that sic are more brittle than other guide centers and my sample size is much smaller than yours as a manufacturer but it is a proven material and not as troublesome as many imagine it may be in practice. I always was suspicious of Sic centers until I tried them on both Surf rods and fly rods mine and my customers and as I said I use my gear hard and never broke one.

We have a language problem as regards guide terminology. Over here we tend to regard to the complete guide as the Ring which includes the frame and center. Whereas it looks like the ring" in the US refers only to the actual center be it Sic Nonolite or Hardaloy. So I agree with you 100% on the weight savings of Titanium over std stainless steel (40%) and this would be discernable compared to a heavier guide made from stainless material relative of course to the number of guides fitted as to how big a difference this will be. Other factors are important of course like strength etc which also have to come into the equation.

Given a choice I would nearly always prefer to fit Titanium framed rings to my rods,providing they meet all the other relevant criteria like strength, quality of frame feet etc. I hate rust on my rings., sorry guides

Ok Joe lets come clean I was a bit techy. I felt the need to defend Sic inserts / centers a tad. But as I said I am still glad that you shared the info of the manufacturing experience beacuse that does as an Engineer fasinate me. By the By how much less did the 30lb rod weigh with the Turbo rings verse your competition.?

No "Hard " fellings Joe


Tight lines

Mike OLiver

And furthermore
Are the Titans made here or if overseas, does the $$$ eventually come home, or does American just put their name on the guides as the exclusive domestic distributor while the same guides are distributed worldwide under different labels. Have run into this on rods before and just interested. More customers are trying to buy USA if at all possible. Personally I hope the trend holds.

Ron,

I would be very surprised if there are ANY ceramic guides actually manufactured in the USA (or much else, actually) I think that in many, if not most, cases products are actually designed by the company (i.e. Amtak, etc., and made to their specs by an overseas manufacturer. Even though a factory may produce an item for numerous companies in the same plant, they are not necessarily the same. Case in point would be "private label" blanks. Various manufacturer's make Cabela's blanks (I have even heard that Loomis makes or has made some of them) but that doesn't mean that they are the same as the ones they make for themselves.
While buying American made products is laudable, a large amount of your money that is spent on a guide made in Asia does, in fact, remain in the USA. The importer is a U.S. company as is the vendor yo buy it from and the shipper that brings it to you.

Mike

Hi guys,

Interesting posts, Joe told me that he made one so I wanted to check it out. I am sure Joe would respond to the questions but he is busy with some appoinments at the moment, we have just returned from the ICAST show last week where we introduced the Turbo Titan guides and they were incredibly well received. As a matter of fact, American Tackle as a company had the best show I have experienced in the last 20 years, so we are extremely busy but I think some of these questions and comments are very good and should be addressed.

SiC
I too am a fan of Silicon Carbide and went through a phase where everything I built used them. Fuji, USG's, NSG's, etc. Pac Bay, TSG's, BTSG's, NTSG's, etc. I also used the other Aluminum Oxides and Titanium Oxides many rods I still have and although I have experienced broken or chipped rings there is a notable difference in SiC vs others. I currently have at least 4 rods (I just checked) with some chipped SiC rings and 1 others. While I am not abusive to my tackle I use them vigorously. After all I do know how to repair them. So I personally believe that they are more seseptible to breakage and this feeling is also shared with many manufacturers as well. There are basically 5 reasons we went with Nanolite as our first choice in ring materials. (besides that it is our own proprietary blend of Zirconium Oxide material)
1. Performance, no saccrifice needed to be made as they are extremely hard and smooth.
2. Availability, SiC is manufacturered in Japan where they demand high prices, large volume orders, and are not open changing shapes and material content.
3. Breakage, as I stated above many manufacturers will stay away from any materials thought to have potential for damage.
4. Costs, performance without astronomical price increases. Like it or not custom rod builders and rod companies alike are fixcated on "lower prices" so we offer the best for reasonable prices.
5. Manufacturing, with a more durable ring being pressed into a frame will result in fewer cracks and broken inserts. The factory likes it and our costs can reflect it.

Vendors
As Billy V.said we do use many different vendors in several countries. Our competitors are all aligned with favorite factories by ownership, distributorship, or the ease of a single supplier relationship. American Tackle's feeling is that no one factory can be the best at everything. Here are some reasons why our system works.
1. We can choose to use factories with strengths in specialized products, for example a company that makes good guides might not make decent reel seats and why should we be forced to use everything they make.
2. We use factories that are open to change so we can design and offer proprietary materials. Examples are our titanium and stainless frames. We also like to offer different variations of these finishes and materials. We also will use ceramics from specific manufacturers as well as different wood suppliers. In Asia there are tight network relationships where certain company's products will never be considered due to bad blood or some silly reason and "our" concern is offering the best products no matter what.
3. Competition with our Asian factories is also a concern of many companies however they do not understand the market like we do so the vendors we choose are the ones that are more then happy for our success rather then finding ways of working around us.
4. Costs of goods, tooling/molds, and payment terms are crucial in project development and keeping our company economically strong.
5. We can keep them all honest in pricing and delivery if they know we can move business to their competitor if we have to.

U.S. Company
Ron, although our products are not made in the USA, all of American Tackle's owners are U.S. citizens. As owners, we have more then 70 years of experience in rod building components. In fact, 75% of the ownership pioneered rod building and aquiring, designing, and marketing components since the early 80's. (maybe earlier since Joe's getting to be an old fart) I point this out to help illistrate that our "globalized" approach, which in fact does help the USA's economy in many ways. While we are not totally unique in this fact, we do try to make our US customers more successful so they can compete against the imported rods. And while I cannot go into how this is acheived I assure you that the US manufacturers will reap the rewards. (not just the ATC ownership)

Try the Titan Turbos out. They are incredible, and as for a comparison to other turbos styles, they offer much more.
1. Corrision proof, the frames will never corrode, so rings will stay in better.
2. They are flexible, they will flex with the rod a due to the design of the frame the ring will stay intact because as the frame flexes they will not warp on the ring side causing ring fall-out.
3. They are extremely light weight, they will make the rod feel as though regular casting guides are on them. They can be used on lighter rods where turbos have never been considered before. They have the largest line range available, 20#-unlimited.
4. Durabilty, due to the flexibility they will not crack at the base of the foot or the top of the frame like the LRSG's on fast taper rods. The frame style is extremely protective of the ring which is one reason we chose to use it for a durable titanium frame guide option which has never been done before.

Thank you for the time.

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

Good Stuff Darrin
That was a most inclusive and well thought out post. Made a copy and stapled inside your catalog for future reference. Plan to build with your turbo's just as soon as a matching top is available which I understand should be soon. Much appreciated.
Ron