I was reading the flexcoat website on how they apply their finishes. In one step it said


"Note: We do not use color preserver on any of the wraps that hold the guides down because it prevents the finish from soaking into the thread, which is essential for a strong bond."

Now I am currently making a few rods where I did put color preserver on the threads. I thought you have to put color preserver on the threads? Is it a big deal if I put color preserver on the threads that hold the guides down ?

thanks

There is an ongoing debate over CP or No CP. The way I see it is, that yes, theoretically a wrap without CP will be stronger than one with CP because it allows the finish to penetrate deeper into the threads, but a wrap with CP is plenty strong too. I've built many stand up style tuna rods using CP and have had no problems with guides pulling free while fighting a fish. I prefer to use CP because the colors that I lay out will look the same after I apply finish to the wraps. I also like using regular thread because it has more brilliance than NCP thread. In the end, it is up to you weather you use it or not.

I also always use CP on my decorative wraps. Before I wrap over the ends, I lay on a coat because it acts like a glue and doesn't allow the threads to move. This is helpful because I've seen nightmare accidents when people try to do the end wraps on their decorative wraps and the wrap shifts on the rod and compresses, ruining hours of work. When I use CP, I could cut the threads, then do the end wraps.

If you want to keep the color of the thread as it was put on, then CP will be needed. You will have to use some means of getting epoxy into the tunnels. Do a search on here and you should find many ways of filling the tunnels. I use a metal pick I have for working with feathers that works real well. You dip the pick into the epoxy and get a small drop on the end, then slip it into the tunnel to fill the space between the thread, guide foot and the blank. But lately for most of my rods now, more people are liking the look with no CP on the threads for the guides. But I still use it on the butt wrap.

Some threads require CP to stay the same color, some don't. I use the ones that don't on my guide wraps and choose not to use CP because of past problems with it.

Putter
Williston, ND

This has been one of my arguements against CP, that it provides for a weaker bond than one without CP (straight finish). I am not saying that it is not a strong enough bond, but that it is not as strong a bond as possible. Some nylons, NCP thread, & metallics do not need cp - I stick with the nylons that do not need it and the metallics. I also sometimes intentionally allow thread to go translucent to show the guide feet using some nylon threads.

Also, I had all the listed problems with CP previously listed in previous threads, but what really convinced me to stop using the stuff is when I went to remove a guide whose thread had been treated with cp - the thread came off much easier than one treated with straight finish only. Any cp residue on the blank could be removed with a fingernail - you can't say that about finish.

I have to admit, I do use cp from time to time, but only for repairs where original thread has been treated with cp to begin with - I use cp to match thread colors better. On new builds I never use the stuff.

To fill tunnels without tools - apply the first thin coat of finish, just enough to wet the thread. Make sure you DO NOT seal the entrances to the tunnels, but apply finish right up to them along the "top" of them putting a little extra along the tops of tunnels. Turn rod guides down and let the rod rest in this position for 5-10 min - the wicking action of the finish, and gravity, will cause the tunnels to gradually fill with finish. Sometimes you will see a pretty good sized bubble form at the tunnel entrance as the air is expelled. Rotate rod guides up, and let rest for 10-15 min. Brush away any excess that may began to accumulate along bottom of rod - drips. Pop any bubbles with a very brief application of flame from a propane torch. Let cure guides up. Apply a 2nd coat 24 hrs later.

Lou

The difference in strength is only about 10% and wraps made with color preserver are not at all inherently weak. Your wraps will be fine. The main thing is to create "shoulders" next to the guide feet edges with either CP or finish. This is done by making sure to fill the tunnels where the guide let meets the guide upright and the thread ends.
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There is only one thing good that can come from using cp and that is for it to do what it was designed for but there are a lot of bad things that can happen. I solved the problem by using metallic thread for an underwrap and Regular Black with no cp as the overwrap. Jesse

Mr. Johnson, Do not be worried about your use of color preserver. The companies that sell finish also sell color preserver. They would not do that if it would harm your wraps in any way. I have been using color preserver for well over 10 years now and on every rod I build with NCP, regular nylon and yes even metallics. To date there has not been one guide to fail or shift under the wraps. Many of my rods see use on saltwater fishing boats and some of the guys are pretty hard on them. If the use of color preserver was bad I would know about it by now. Customers are not going to put up with loose or shifting guides without letting you know about it.

Gotta admit...Jessy has no thread storage problems. One shoebox full of gold metallic & one box full of black ! :>}

I use the color sealer on all the rods I wrap with regular nylon thread. I have never had any failures of any kind that I know of. I use U40 color lock most of the time.

Flexcoat must be missing soomething then, suggesting not to use cp.

NOT!

Lou

They make it and sell it, so they obviously don't feel it's inherently bad. I don't think a company would sell a product that is going to guarantee their customers a bad experience.

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Remember they only suggest to not use it on guide wraps; I'm sure it's fine on decorative butt wraps is what their intent is.

Putter
Williston, ND

This argument will go on as long as people build rods. I use CP 99% of the time and can honestly say that I have never had a guide wrap actually break, either on my rods or anyone elses. I would be pretty surprised if anyone else has either. I have taken old rods with CP wraps on them and tried to break the wrap and in every case, the guides were destroyed without the wrap ever breaking. I rarely have a problem removing guides on repairs of factory rods that do NOT use CP. The thread usually just unwinds like it was on a spool (with a little heat)

Everytime this discussion comes up, I ask if any has actually seen a wrap fail (other than from abuse/abraision which the use of CP wouldn't qaffect one way or the other) and have yet to see anyone say they have. (A single foot guide pulling out doesn't count-that's what the Forhan wrap is for).

Mike

Mike, I have. And, I fully admit it is operator error. The only guidewraps that I have had fail is when I have used CP. In each case, I had water penetrate under the thread and the threads hold lessened just enough for the guide to move. With the Forhan lock, they have not pulled completely out, but have moved around. Again, I fully admit it is because I somehow allowed a space in the finish for the water to get to an exposed thread(s). When this has happened, it seems that the CP (Gudebrod 811) is what is effected. btw, this has not kept me from continuing to use CP when I want a specific aesthitic look, but I've also tried to become even more annal about finishing technique. Even then, I think the "possibility" of a failure goes up slightly when using CP (tunnel is not completely full, a minute crack in the finish with use (yes, I know correct foot prep should prevent this), but it is certainly not probable, if attention is paid to finishing technique.

Steve, that was my point. I'm not telling anyone to use or not use CP, just to make your choice because of personal preference, not because you think you need to. If I understood you right, the wrap did not break, the guide loosened. (that is my most common repair on factory jobs with NO CP) Like you said, it was caused by application error, not the CP. I have had the same thing happen until I paid more attention to my finish application on the tunnels/wrap edges

Mike

I agree. However, my experience is when you use CP it is less forgiving finish technique issues and when I've experienced the most lose wraps. imo, the best overall answer is to perfect finishing.

Steve,

You might be right, I just haven't had any problem with it. I'm sure a lot depends on the technique as well as type of CP.

Mike