I was talking to a local rod builder and ask him about single foot ceramic guides on fly rods he said not to use them. They hold the line off the blank when cast it will put a twist in the blank and throw the cast off. Is this true?? Are there some cermic guides better than others? I have a few fly rods to build and was hoping to put ceramic guide on them. What are the pros and cons to snake guides and ceramic guides???

No it's not true in any way, shape or form. First of all, blank twist is not going to "throw the cast off." It's still moving around a central axis and you'll never move the line by more than a quarter inch even if you twisted the top around to 90 degrees. Second, low frame guides such as most single foot ceramics don't generally provide enough of a lever arm to create the torque necessary to twist the blank much if at all during a cast. The load on a blank when you cast versus when you battle a fish is quite a bit different.

The pros of snake guides would be that they work just fine and they cost very little. The cons would be that they're prone to wear over extended use and that they allow the line to contact the blank on the motion of the forward cast. They're also a bit tougher on line than slick ceramics are. But they do work and do an admirable job for the cost involved.

The pros of ceramics are harder, slicker surfaces for the line to move across. They don't wear and won't ever groove. (You could crack one with very rough handling, of course, but you can bend or flatten a snake by the same type handling - nobody wins when a rod receives rough handling.) They're also very quiet. This is hard to really understand until you've fished a rod with snakes and then compared to one with ceramics. The cons are a much, much higher price, particularly when you talk about SIC or Cermet rings and titanium frames. Beyond that, I'm really not aware of any negatives. I have heard some builders mention that when fishing in extremely cold weather, they're more apt to freeze water in the rings, although I've not had that happen personally.

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First of all Russ, I am not an expert fly fisherman. I am still in the learning phase. However, every fly rod that I have built has ceramic guides on it. I do my practice casting in a nearby pond and also on my front yard. The pond is stocked with bass and I usually catch one while practicing. The pond's water is clear to a certain point near the bank so I can sight cast to the bass as I walk around the pond. I also place a small target on my yard that I cast to. At fifty feet or so, I can hit the target. That is further than I would need to cast when sight fishing for redfish in the marshes. Beyond that, I can't see the fish in the water. I have a new IM6 7 wt. that I built using an All Star blank that I bought from Andy Dear. Using a Headstart fly line, for the first time ever, I was able to shoot the whole line. So I guess that I will continue using ceramic guides on my rods. I don't want to discredit anybody in their beliefs and experiences but I really like the ceramics on my rods.

Russ , if your rod is going to be for close in work with light line ceramics will be of no advantage in the casting dept. Tom mentiond all of the pros of the ceramics . If heavy lines and long casting are on the menu , you will find a giant difference in performance for casting / shooting line , and noticable reduction in line wear . They are nice and quiet and you only need a single wrap on the running guides . Believe me , the difference in the two is VERY noticable .
Have fun , John

What Tom said

Also you want the least amount of weight on the rod. I myself do single foot wire on fly's up to maybe 4 WT, ceramics after that.
One foot, one less thread wrap and less finish, less weight., better performance.

Russ,
I'm not the builder that these others are, but I have been using single foot ceramics for 25 years on my own rods. Except for an occaisonal loss of an insert - and we're talking maybe 3 or 4 out of a couple hundred guides over 25 years - they perform well. I started using them because I liked the look and they required only one wrap per guide. I have no doubt that they also may increase the casting distance, but in the real world of wind, trees, current, and flawed casting skills, that may be the least of the benefits.

Wayne

Thanks for all the input.
It is nice to see a forum where everybody is willing to share there knowledge.
I hope to meet you all in Charlotte.


Thanks Again
Russ

You might want to consider the AmTak Titan guides. I just got a set of them from FishStix in Richmond, VA and they're about half the weight of normal ceramics. I cast a rod built with them at Charlotte last year and they have the same performance benefits of all ceramics.

Scott Kinney
The Longest Cast Fly Rods
[www.thelongestcast.com]

I really don't think you should be talking to that local rod builder at all anymore.....
Use this board.....you will get "the right stuff"

Has anyone ever weighed a set of ceramic single leg guides against a set of traditional snakes? i want to put a set of sic rings on a sage 10 foot 6 weight XP but i notice that sage use the very small thin wire snakes on them and i cant help feeling that a set of sic rings is going to add too much weight to the tip and damp the action - anyone tried it ? i am hoping that a single whipping and epoxy will match the weight of a lightweight snake with two whippings but i dont know - and its an expensive mistake to make if it doesnt work.

thanks jan