A friend needs about 4 50lb class rods for his boat. He saw the few 20lb ones I made and asked me if I could make 4 50lb class rods for him. Is there anything different involved in buidling these heavier rods? I have built a 30lb that I cut the blank and expoxied into the unibutt. That came out pretty well. My question is though can a novice rod builder make a quality 50 class rod that will hold up for years? It seems easy for me to make, I guess I thought it would be harder.

Forgot to add, will the lite flexcoat do the job on the heavier rods? Just seems strange that the same stuff can be used on either fly rods or heavy saltwater rods. How about those high build finishes. ?

thanks

There is no reason why you can't use Flex Coat Lite. I have stopped using the original Flex Coat. The lite doen't yellow as badly as the old stuff. Put a light first coat, just enough to cover the threads then go back the next day and put on another coat. I thin the first mix per instructions on the Flex Coat web site. The second coat goes on straight. Make sure that your guide wraps are nice and tight and well burnished and you shouldn't have any problems. I would do an underwrap on each guide, go over the guide with size A thread over that with size C. For the under wrap I would use size A thread and put a lite finish on it. Let it dry and then wrap the guides.

Al - Go with quality design, components and assembly, and you'll both be proud. Does he want to try a spiral wrap? If he does a freshwater washdown on his rod (and tackle) at the end of each day, the Uni-Butt and guides (rollers?) should work well and look great for years to come. Remember that his drag settings could easily load more than 20++ pounds of tension on the outfit. Space and choose the line guides accordingly.

If he is / you are not using roller guides, then you may want to use a sturdier frame and ring on the guides than the ones you choose for your 20# trolling rod. IMO, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-

Just go for it Al,
If you have built a 20lb. rod you can build a 50lb. Espescially if you follow Ellis's
advice. I used to use all "C" thread for the bigger rods I built in So. Cal. but found
the "A" thread looks better and the over-wraps lay better. Larger thread wraps
easier and smoother over smaller thread. I don't know if you underwrapped the
lower classed rods but you definately want to underwrap any heavy class rod as the
underwrap protects the blank from the pressure from the guide feet.

I'm sure your friend will be very happy.

Good Luck and have FUN!

Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

For those who may want to read more about the choice and strength of guide thread, based on thread size, tensile strength, and wrap-strength per unit width, may I recommend the following Post & Replies. -Cliff Hall-

19. Thread Break Strength (size A vs D) - debunking the myth
Mark Gordon 02/19/05 03:41PM (with 19 Posts)
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[http://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,136781,136781#msg-136781]

To quote a brief excerpt: "To summarize .... :
- Size A thread finishes nicer - use for most applications
- Size D thread is recommended for use on rods that will receive rough treatment (handles abrasion better)
- A guide finished properly with either Size A or Size D thread will not break away from the rod. The stress required to break a guide away from its thread wrap will break or deform the guide, or break the rod before the thread will fail." Mark Gordon.

Thanks for the help guys.

Cliff what do you mean by "Remember that his drag settings could easily load more than 20++ pounds of tension on the outfit. Space and choose the line guides accordingly" I am sure on which guides to chose (Aftco rollers) but I always thought the spacing had to do with the action of the rod? Make the lin follow the bend without touching the rod? At the rod place I went to they gave and told me to use C for underwrap and E for overwrap.

Thanks, Al

Thank You Very Much Cliff !!
I just completed reading the thread you mentioned.
[www.rodbuilding.org]]
One of the most informitive threads I've read!
A MUST READ!! for every rod builder. Especially builders from the old
school.


Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Al - 'Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, and any confusion my comments may have caused you or other RBO readers.

Since you are using going to use the Aftco rollers (and not ring guides, as I thought you might be trying to get away with), then follow the usual recommendations for the total number of Aftco roller guides and their sizes. Usually, the Aftco roller guides are less expensive when purchased as a set of guides + tip-top from your Supplier. Since you are building 4 such 50#-class trolling rods, then you definitely want to minimize any overage or underage on your order (and wallet !).

The spacing of the guides most definitely has to do with the action of the rod, as you stated. But the amount of bend in the rod and the shape of that curve will vary as the load on the rod changes, and as the angle at which the rod is being held by the angler when fighting the fish changes. When you do your Static Deflection Test, or your hand bending of the blank when assessing the guide spacing under a fighting-drag load, just make sure that the line remains off the blank when the rod is deeply bent. This is most likely to be an issue between the 2nd and 4th line guides. (If you choose to spiral wrap the rod guides, then the line is under the rod forward of the transition zone, so the line rubbing the blank is not even an issue in that case.) Aftco roller guides also help in this department, because roller guides tend to have such a high frame for the roller axle and a large diameter wheel that the fishing line is usually well above and off the rod blank anyways. With ring guides on a boat or trolling rod, keeping the line above and off the rod blank is usually more of a challenge. (Again, Spiral Wrapping nearly eliminates this concern. And spiral wrapping will significantly reduce the rod's tendency to roll-over under a heavy load.)

Al, as far as the selection of thread size and the advice that you received from your local rod shop, it is definitely good advice. Using, say, size A & C thread is much slower during the wrapping process than, say, using size C & E thread, for the under-wraps & over-wraps, respectively. Some people feel E is too fat a thread. IMO, this is a matter or personal preference. I really like the heavy-duty look of E-size thread on all my saltwater rods (surf & boat), and the extra sparkle I think that E-thread has in the Regular Nylon thread. E-thread wraps fast, is the strongest wrap per unit bandwidth, and can be torqued down without fear of popping during the wrapping process. And E-thread holds up to abrasion or saltwater intrusion better than the smaller size threads, simply because it is a much thicker thread diameter than the others.

As discussed elsewhere, and in that Post & Replies that I quoted above started by Mark Gordon, most any size thread, A, C, D or E, is strong enough to keep a guide from ripping out when it is properly wrapped over the guide. But if that guide gets side-whacked in a heaving sea against the gunwale, or in a battle with a bruiser, or smashed in transit, and the owner bends the guide frame back to straighten it out, I’d rather have a D or E thread overwrap holding down the two guide feet than an A or C size thread, IMO. If that guide later seems to be loose, and it was a size A thread overwrap, then the rod owner may say that the wrap thread was under-gauge. But if that guide was wrapped with D or E thread, or if it was triple-wrapped, then you can confidently blame the force of the impact on the guide and the subsequent field repair for the damage and looseness, and not the accusation of a light thread tension or of too weak a thread being used to whip down the guide feet. IMO, -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, Florida +++

For the record, Ellis Mendiola is recommending a TRIPLE-WRAP of these Aftco roller guides, on these 50# trolling rods, if I am understanding his grammar and syntax correctly.

He is recommending to use:
Size A thread for the underwrap.
Size A thread for the first overwrap.
Size C thread for the second overwrap.

IMO, that would be considered equivalent strength-wise, if not superior, to using:
Size C thread for the underwrap.
Size E thread for the overwrap (as the one and the only overwrap).

IMO, either configuration of wraps would fit the bill, and the 2nd (C & E), is definitely quicker.

IMO, the size of the thread used in the underwrap has no effect on the strength of the overwrap. The underwrap cushions the blank from the pressure of the guide feet, and provides an inset or indentation for the guide feet to sit in. This increases the friction between the guide feet and the underlying thread, and that helps to keep the guide feet from sliding when the rod is flexed. … I hope that helps. -Cliff Hall-

RAY – I’m really glad you enjoyed the Post, “Thread Break Strength (size A vs D) - debunking the myth.” I, too, consider it a “must read”, and an important exercise in thinking thru on the facts and hidden mathematics and simple science-physics underlying one of our choices in making rod-building design decisions. And, Thanks, Ray, for letting me know that I am not here just talking or typing to myself. I have found RBO to be a great resource for information from many very knowledgeable rod-builders. The RBO Forum has been a tremendous catalyst for my assimilation of that information and for my learning much more from my own rod-building experiences (and college-based engineering and chemistry training) than I would have learned on my own. When you get to problem-analysis and problem-solving, that is when the real learning begins. At RBO, you can learn at 10 times the rate of your own endeavors, once you learn how to learn from others. It’s about far more than just coming here to have my one little question answered. In exactly one year here at RBO, I now have an archive of over 400 documents on my local computer, on dozens of topics vital to general rod-building and on my particular topics of interest. That represents 1000’s of comments, if not 10,000 comments, on these topics. And I myself have posted over 300 comments at RBO, and had many of my own burning questions answered; many directly, but even more indirectly, thru reading other’s Posts and helping to answer their questions. … As I have freely received here at RBO, so I am glad to eagerly pass along what I have learned about rod-building, giving back to RBO, as time permits. -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL +++

Cliff,
You are soooo correct about RBO! Thanks to Tom and everyone else on the board.
I also have learned more about rod building in a few months than the 2 yrs. of building
rods in the 80's. I had left the practise for a lot of years but thanks to some friends and
RBO I'm back in the saddle again! HOOK, LINE, and SINKER !! Better than I was before!
I thank Don Burgess in Washington for stearing me to the board.
I Wish I found RBO and RodMaker's Magazine long ago as I have stated many times and can't state enough.
I hope to soon be able to support RBO with my $ as well as my attendance.



Raymond Adams
Eventually, all things merge, and a river runs through it..

Cliff thanks for the help and everyone else. If I was going to wrap the guide twice with E thread would you say I should do one wrap then tie it off, then do another over it? Or when I get to the guide feet just change direction and go back down? Just to be clear the flexcoat is applied after the two wraps are put on right? You do not wrap once put the coat on then wrap again.

AL - I think most builders would tie off the first overwrap at the heel before just turning back and wrapping the second overwrap. It makes it much easier to pack and burnish the first overwrap's thread tightly. This is more important on the fat E-size threads, because it is easier to see where the gaps are, or where the upper wrap sinks down into the gaps between the lower wrap, because that is a common problem when the lower thread diameter is not smaller than the upper thread's diameter.

Then you can apply a coat of epoxy to that one layer of thread before adding the second overwrap. On the first overwrap, it is more important to get the epoxy finish into the thread fibers and to fill the "tunnels" along the guide feet. This is easier to do when there is only one layer of thread to penetrate and only one layer of thread holding air. If you use a lower viscosity finish, this also helps fill those tunnels. This is a matter of experimentation,: knowing your epoxy's wetting properties, pot life, your threads absorption, your facility with applying the finish, your overall speed, and if you have the time to apply this epoxy in one, two or three stages.

If you heat your finish on the rod to help drive out air bubbles, (as some builders choose to do, given the brand of epoxy finish they prefer to use), then you definitely don't want to have to warm thru two-layers of newly-wetted thread to drive out the air.

Think about what you're doing before you commit, and as you go along, and you should be fine. If you are going to triple-wrap these guides, and if you intend to use a Color Preserver (CP) to keep a Regular Nylon Thread from turning translucent when the epoxy thread finish is applied, then give the CP enough time to dry on this heavier E thread, especially if you multi-layer the thread before applying your CP. Wait about 24 hours for that CP to dry, or use thread colors and over/under-wrap thread combinations and rod blank colors which tolerate the absence of CP. Then you can do multi-layer thread finishing with fewer considerations, and hopefully fewer post-facto complications.

AL - If you are using the old FlexCoat epoxy thread finish, which is one of the thicker finishes, you may want to wrap these layers and apply the finish in separate stages, at least on the first rod of the 4 you intend to build. That way you can see how the FlexCoat behaves when you are working it into this E-size thread. Once you have done one rod, you will know how much you want to push your envelope for speed - or just play it safe, and do a multi-stage wrap & finish process, instead of a multi-layer thread drowning.

... It's a lot of work to redo a triple wrap if the finish turns cloudy because of a rush-job. Read back-posts on that subject via the Search feature if you are not convinced. Like Tom Kirkman says, most of the time, a rod-builder advancing into more complicated thread-finishing tasks will not encounter a problem. But for the ~ 5% who do, it is a 100% headache; and usually the only remedy is to slice off the guides and re-wrap. ... Proceed with educated caution. Look before you leap. ... Best Wishes, Cliff Hall.

Thanks for the help Cliff. On My first 30lb rod I built when I got to the guide foot I just went the other way and wrapped right over it. Then applied the color preserve then wait and applied the flexcoat. They said to do this at my local rod buidling shop so I think it will be alright. I do like the idea of how you said to tie it off then apply the flexcoat then wrap over it. That way seems stronger. I think the 50lb rods will need that, I think ill be ok on the 30lb rods that i already did.